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Don -You thought architect licensing was bad

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Don -You thought architect licensing was bad Animal05 03-23-2007
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Posted by Bob Morrison on March 23, 2007, 5:16 pm
In a previous post 3D Peruna wrote...
> Fair enough...but the reasoning comes from a philosophy that less
> government is better...and by extension, less licensing, regulation,
> etc. is better. So, yes, it's a political discussion.
>
> And, in this case, I think he has a point. And he used an example
> that's easy to see the potential absurdity of licensing law.
>
>

That may be true for the particular example the Mr. Will cites.

Let me ask you this, "Do you want your multi-story regional trauma center
hospital designed by someone calling himself a structural engineer?"

It seems to me that where there is life-safety involved we want to make
darn sure that the people involved have a demonstrated ability to perform
the work.

Does that mean a licensed person cannot perform bad work? Of course not.
But, I think we cut down on the chances of shoddy (or life threatening)
work being performed if we have that person be able to pass a test showing
a minimum level of knowledge.

Would you want your appendix removed by an unlicensed surgeon?

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Posted by 3D Peruna on March 23, 2007, 6:21 pm
Bob Morrison wrote:

> That may be true for the particular example the Mr. Will cites.
>
> Let me ask you this, "Do you want your multi-story regional trauma center
> hospital designed by someone calling himself a structural engineer?"
>
> It seems to me that where there is life-safety involved we want to make
> darn sure that the people involved have a demonstrated ability to perform
> the work.
>
> Does that mean a licensed person cannot perform bad work? Of course not.
> But, I think we cut down on the chances of shoddy (or life threatening)
> work being performed if we have that person be able to pass a test showing
> a minimum level of knowledge.
>
> Would you want your appendix removed by an unlicensed surgeon?

I'm a licensed professional...I have licenses in several states and have
jumped through the hoops to get there. Having been through it, I have
often wondered what was the point...in other words, it wasn't that
difficult. The test was less challenging than I had expected (I did
spend time preparing). I've also met less competent members of the
profession. So, in the first place, licensing does not mean competency
in the profession.

I also compare it to other countries. Finland, for instance, has no
official architecture license. Your ability to call yourself an
architect means you've been to school and graduated. That's it (at
least it was the last time I looked, as I'd considered possibly taking
on a project or two there). And it's the same there, having been
through school doesn't grant competency.

What's different there? What's different here? It appears that they've
decided that education and experience are enough to use the term
"architect." In the US, we've added a licensing requirement. Having
been to Finland, I think that, in general, they have better
buildings/architecture. How can this be? They don't have a licensing
requirement?

Finland is a good example to use, too... They're a western, first-world
country. They have a higher literacy rate than the US. More things are
similar than different between the countries.

Their buildings aren't death traps... so, what's the purpose of a license?



Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Se=F1or_Popcorn on March 23, 2007, 8:03 pm
3D Peruna wrote:
> Bob Morrison wrote:
>
>> That may be true for the particular example the Mr. Will cites.
>> Let me ask you this, "Do you want your multi-story regional trauma
>> center hospital designed by someone calling himself a structural
>> engineer?"
>>
>> It seems to me that where there is life-safety involved we want to
>> make darn sure that the people involved have a demonstrated ability to
>> perform the work.
>>
>> Does that mean a licensed person cannot perform bad work? Of course
>> not. But, I think we cut down on the chances of shoddy (or life
>> threatening) work being performed if we have that person be able to
>> pass a test showing a minimum level of knowledge.
>>
>> Would you want your appendix removed by an unlicensed surgeon?
>
> I'm a licensed professional...I have licenses in several states and have
> jumped through the hoops to get there. Having been through it, I have
> often wondered what was the point...in other words, it wasn't that
> difficult. The test was less challenging than I had expected (I did
> spend time preparing). I've also met less competent members of the
> profession. So, in the first place, licensing does not mean competency
> in the profession.
>
> I also compare it to other countries. Finland, for instance, has no
> official architecture license. Your ability to call yourself an
> architect means you've been to school and graduated. That's it (at
> least it was the last time I looked, as I'd considered possibly taking
> on a project or two there). And it's the same there, having been
> through school doesn't grant competency.
>
> What's different there? What's different here? It appears that they've
> decided that education and experience are enough to use the term
> "architect." In the US, we've added a licensing requirement. Having
> been to Finland, I think that, in general, they have better
> buildings/architecture. How can this be? They don't have a licensing
> requirement?
>
> Finland is a good example to use, too... They're a western, first-world
> country. They have a higher literacy rate than the US. More things are
> similar than different between the countries.
>
> Their buildings aren't death traps... so, what's the purpose of a license?
>

Maybe it can be looked up online ,or its licensing-body, itself, asked.
Maybe, it's like any other well-intentioned system that irresponsibility
then has a go at, or, contrarily, a system built with ill intent that
resposibility then has a stab at.

Posted by Kris Krieger on April 4, 2007, 6:10 pm

> Bob Morrison wrote:
>
>> That may be true for the particular example the Mr. Will cites.
>>
>> Let me ask you this, "Do you want your multi-story regional trauma
>> center hospital designed by someone calling himself a structural
>> engineer?"
>>
>> It seems to me that where there is life-safety involved we want to
>> make darn sure that the people involved have a demonstrated ability
>> to perform the work.
>>
>> Does that mean a licensed person cannot perform bad work? Of course
>> not. But, I think we cut down on the chances of shoddy (or life
>> threatening) work being performed if we have that person be able to
>> pass a test showing a minimum level of knowledge.
>>
>> Would you want your appendix removed by an unlicensed surgeon?
>
> I'm a licensed professional...I have licenses in several states and
> have jumped through the hoops to get there. Having been through it, I
> have often wondered what was the point...in other words, it wasn't
> that difficult. The test was less challenging than I had expected (I
> did spend time preparing). I've also met less competent members of
> the profession. So, in the first place, licensing does not mean
> competency in the profession.
>
> I also compare it to other countries. Finland, for instance, has no
> official architecture license. Your ability to call yourself an
> architect means you've been to school and graduated. That's it (at
> least it was the last time I looked, as I'd considered possibly taking
> on a project or two there). And it's the same there, having been
> through school doesn't grant competency.
>
> What's different there? What's different here? It appears that
> they've decided that education and experience are enough to use the
> term "architect." In the US, we've added a licensing requirement.
> Having been to Finland, I think that, in general, they have better
> buildings/architecture. How can this be? They don't have a licensing
> requirement?
>
> Finland is a good example to use, too... They're a western,
> first-world country. They have a higher literacy rate than the US.
> More things are similar than different between the countries.
>
> Their buildings aren't death traps... so, what's the purpose of a
> license?
>
>
>


You make good points, and I'd say that licensing *can* be very beneficial
in many cases, but it also can be detrimental when it becomes, as you
expressed it, just another hoop to jump through. OTOH, it *can* be seen
as a mark of your dedication, that you were willing to do all that hoop-
jumping ;) !

IMO, what';s improtant to to just just do away with any and all
licensing, but rather, take a balanced look at specific cases and
determine which licenses are superfluous.

IMO, licenses might be more important in cases where experience and
talent can be substituted for formal education. If one has received
one's degree in architecture, or structural engineering, and similar,
then one oughtto be able to simply call oneself an architect, or a
structural engineer, or so on. Now, if you've then gone on and gotten
additional specialized training, for example, as one post mentioned,
designing health care facilities, then you can use your degree to prove
that you're a Health-Care Facilities Design Specialist. But if you have
not had that training, and have not apprenticed (or whatever) with
someone who specialized in htat,then you should not be ableot advertise
yourself as being a specialist.

That's what I think, anyway ;)










Posted by Animal05 on March 24, 2007, 7:09 am
3D Peruna wrote:

> Pierre Levesque wrote:
>
>> Sure. The article is on a subject that is continously debated.
>>
>> A) Some find it a valid arguement that licensing is required to
>> protect the public from abuse and un-professional conduct and
>> behaviour among other issues related to the industry itself .
>
>
>> B) Others disagree and feel that the reason for licensing and
>> certification exists to "protect" those who work in the industry.
>>
>> This article opines that the reason is much more B) than A)
>>
>> That reasoning is a purely political point of view given that it is
>> published on a web site called relclearpolitics.com by a mostly
>> political commentator named George Will.
>
>
> Fair enough...but the reasoning comes from a philosophy that less
> government is better...and by extension, less licensing, regulation,
> etc. is better. So, yes, it's a political discussion.
>
> And, in this case, I think he has a point. And he used an example
> that's easy to see the potential absurdity of licensing law.
>
>> My opinion is that those more qualified to have the debate and
>> dialogue should be from the industry in question.
>
>
> But before you have the debate and dialog about that particular
> industry, you need to have the debate and dialog that the concept of
> licensing/registration is required. This is the position he's
> taking...that less is better. He was using the specific example to make
> a general point.
>
>>
>> There... you happy?
>
>
> You can't make me happy (only I can do that)...
>
You have to admit the part about licensing / furniture moving has gone
far beyond absurd.

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