Off-Grid building and nergy efficiency website - Page 2

>> [edited for bandwidth]
>>>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
>>>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit of
>>>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that will
>>>> be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley convinced that
>>>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. Of course it
>>>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn't
>>>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most
>>>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking about
>>>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households, and
>>>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
>>>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
>>>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
>>>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea is
>>>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>>> Kris,
>>> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, divided
>>> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and
>>> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 12'
>>> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to the
>>> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visual
>>> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in the
>>> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The central
>>> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
>>> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
>> I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
>> moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
>> Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've lived.
>> It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
>> "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>> ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people coming
>> in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhhod and
>> trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu ethey
>> see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things which
>> turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever it is
>> that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of
>> overpriced houses. THere is probably a more correct term for the
>> process, but I don't know what it is...))
>> ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
>> expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever see
>> people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peopel as
>> I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an area
>> where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help" (usu.
>> the people mowing the lawn).
>> It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and shut
>> the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around
>> poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me to say
>> it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>> I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or what;
>> it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyone
>> outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids, nobody.
>> Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>>> We planted
>>> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
>>> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
>>> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
>>> good.
>> That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The
>> better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
>> obvious reasons.
>> One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
>> fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
>> afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. But
>> doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
>> IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but the
>> noise, lacking a refuge.
>> THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a shit
>> about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as they
>> can.
>>> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
>>> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within the
>>> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for trash
>>> access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet had
>>> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>> Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
>> choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if you
>> are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction.
>>> On those two blocks my girls
>>> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
>>> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
>>> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I was
>>> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb, and
>>> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not as
>>> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and wanted
>>> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
>>> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
>>> EDS
>> Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
>> *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very different
>> attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a disliek of
>> monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to
>> disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot of
>> active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and any
>> "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire field,
>> precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. From what I've seen,
>> sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
> Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
> The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a large
> portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstand
> she's calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools where
> everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other to
> ones own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their days it
> seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in time
> and adjust to normalcy.
> Now for something completely different.
> Ever seen water witching?
> I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get this,
> with 2 pieces of wire.
> I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lines on
> the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> Amazing.
> I did it too, anybody can.
> You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol, and
> start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires will
> sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop and
> stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tank.
> Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like watching
> magnets, its invisible.
> I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I wasn't
> used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.

>
>> [edited for bandwidth]
>>>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
>>>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit
>>>> of humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that
>>>> will be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley
>>>> convinced that isolated households are *universally* the best idea.
>>>> Of course it works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them,
>>>> but it doesn't work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as
>>>> being the most energy-conserving option. More and more, people are
>>>> thinking about arcologies and alternatives both to isolated
>>>> suburban households, and to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of
>>>> urban ugliness.
>>>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
>>>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
>>>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea
>>>> is also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>>> Kris,
>>> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859,
>>> divided with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16'
>>> wide and sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back
>>> another 12' and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a
>>> secondary stair to the lower level under the stoop. This made for a
>>> 600' X 80' foot visual stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all
>>> around. The cars parked in the street, forcing traffic to move
>>> slowly through the block. The central area had a grand cast iron
>>> fountain, and 12 full grown trees surrounded by a wrought iron
>>> fence, with several gates.
>> I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
>> moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
>> Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've
>> lived. It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and
>> started "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>> ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people
>> coming in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the
>> neighborhhod and trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr,
>> move in becasu ethey see nothing more than an "investment
>> opportunity", and do things which turn the houses "inward" so to
>> speak, and end up ruining whatever it is that make s a neighborhood a
>> neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of overpriced houses. THere
>> is probably a more correct term for the process, but I don't know
>> what it is...))
>> ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
>> expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever
>> see people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around
>> peopel as I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to
>> be in an area where the only people you ever seem to see outside are
>> "hired help" (usu. the people mowing the lawn).
>> It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and
>> shut the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous
>> around poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic,
>> for me to say it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>> I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or
>> what; it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say
>> anyone outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids,
>> nobody. Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>>> We planted
>>> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
>>> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
>>> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
>>> good.
>> That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The
>> better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
>> obvious reasons.
>> One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
>> fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
>> afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. But
>> doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
>> IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but
>> the noise, lacking a refuge.
>> THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a
>> shit about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as
>> they can.
>>> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
>>> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within
>>> the City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for
>>> trash access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted,
>>> yet had easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>> Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
>> choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if
>> you are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced
>> interaction.
>>> On those two blocks my girls
>>> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
>>> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
>>> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I
>>> was at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in
>>> suburb, and have good public access and ferry service to the City,
>>> it is not as close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved
>>> in and wanted everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the
>>> fun. I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
>>> EDS
>> Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
>> *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very
>> different attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a
>> disliek of monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always
>> susceptable to disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e.
>> require a lot of active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to
>> maintain them, and any "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a
>> threat to the entire field, precisely becasue monocultures are less
>> robust. From what I've seen, sociological monoculture isn't all that
>> different.
>
> Snootification. Can I use that? LOL

> The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a
> large portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I
> undertstand she's calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly
> keeps community *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people
> be.

> I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the
> schools where everybody is considered one and should be looking out
> for each other to ones own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.

> 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their
> days it seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over
> it in time and adjust to normalcy.

>
> Now for something completely different.
> Ever seen water witching?

> I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get
> this, with 2 pieces of wire.
> I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing
> lines on the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> Amazing.
> I did it too, anybody can.
> You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol,
> and start walking and when you cross something under the ground the
> wires will sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other
> you stop and stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.

> We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic
> tank. Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda
> like watching magnets, its invisible.
> I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I
> wasn't used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
It *is* a hoot (hey, *any* reason for a party <L!>) - but as above, I

> > [edited for bandwidth]
> >>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
> >>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit of
> >>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that will
> >>> be as beneficial as possible. =A0And I'm not absolutley convinced that=
> >>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. =A0Of course it
> >>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn't
> >>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most
> >>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking about
> >>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households, and
> >>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
> >>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
> >>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
> >>> practical and current problems. =A0But the "central greenhouse" idea i=
> >>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
> >> Kris,
> >> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, =A0divided=
> >> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and
> >> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 12'
> >> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to the
> >> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visual
> >> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in the
> >> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The central
> >> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
> >> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
> > I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
> > moving". =A0One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
> > Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've lived.
> > It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
> > "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
> > ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people coming
> > in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhhod and=
> > trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu ethey=
> > see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things which
> > turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever it is
> > that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of=
> > overpriced houses. =A0THere is probably a more correct term for the
> > process, but I don't know what it is...))
> > ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
> > expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever se=
> > people *outside*. =A0As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peopel=

> > I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an area
> > where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help" (usu=
> > the people mowing the lawn).
> > It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and shu=
> > the doors". =A0And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around
> > poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me to sa=
> > it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
> > I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or what;=
> > it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyone
> > outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids, nobody.
> > Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
> >> We planted
> >> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
> >> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
> >> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
> >> good.
> > That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. =A0The
> > better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
> > obvious reasons.
> > One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
> > fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
> > afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. =A0But
> > doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
> > IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but the=
> > noise, lacking a refuge.
> > THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a shit=
> > about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as they
> > can.
> >> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
> >> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within the
> >> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for trash
> >> access. =A0We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet ha=
> >> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
> > Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
> > choice. =A0I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if you=
> > are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction.
> >> On those two blocks my girls
> >> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
> >> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
> >> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I was
> >> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb, and
> >> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not as
> >> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and wanted
> >> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
> >> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
> >> EDS
> > Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. =A0It's odd, because
> > *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very differen=
> > attitudes about most things. =A0One of which is that I have a disliek of=
> > monoculture. =A0In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to
> > disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot of
> > active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and any
> > "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire field,
> > precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. =A0From what I've seen,
> > sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
> Snootification. Can I use that? =A0LOL
> The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a large
> portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstand she=
> calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools where=
> everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other to on=
> own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their days it=
> seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in time a=
> adjust to normalcy.
> Now for something completely different.
> Ever seen water witching?
> I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get this,=
> with 2 pieces of wire.
> I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lines on=
> the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> Amazing.
> I did it too, anybody can.
> You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol, and=
> start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires will=
> sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop and
> stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tank.
> Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like watching=
> magnets, its invisible.
> I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I wasn't=
> used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.

> > > [edited for bandwidth]
> > >>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
> > >>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit of
> > >>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that will
> > >>> be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley convinced that
> > >>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. Of course it
> > >>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn't
> > >>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most
> > >>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking about
> > >>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households, and
> > >>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
> > >>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
> > >>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
> > >>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea is
> > >>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
> > >> Kris,
> > >> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, divided
> > >> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and
> > >> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 12'
> > >> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to the
> > >> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visual
> > >> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in the
> > >> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The central
> > >> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
> > >> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
> > > I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
> > > moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
> > > Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've lived.
> > > It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
> > > "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
> > > ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people coming
> > > in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhhod and
> > > trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu ethey
> > > see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things which
> > > turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever it is
> > > that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of
> > > overpriced houses. THere is probably a more correct term for the
> > > process, but I don't know what it is...))
> > > ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
> > > expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever
> > > see
> > > people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peopel as
> > > I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an area
> > > where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help"
> > > (usu.
> > > the people mowing the lawn).
> > > It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and
> > > shut
> > > the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around
> > > poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me to
> > > say
> > > it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
> > > I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or what;
> > > it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyone
> > > outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids, nobody.
> > > Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
> > >> We planted
> > >> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
> > >> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
> > >> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
> > >> good.
> > > That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The
> > > better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
> > > obvious reasons.
> > > One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
> > > fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
> > > afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. But
> > > doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
> > > IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but the
> > > noise, lacking a refuge.
> > > THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a shit
> > > about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as they
> > > can.
> > >> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
> > >> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within the
> > >> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for trash
> > >> access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet had
> > >> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
> > > Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
> > > choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if you
> > > are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction.
> > >> On those two blocks my girls
> > >> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
> > >> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
> > >> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I was
> > >> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb, and
> > >> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not as
> > >> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and wanted
> > >> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
> > >> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
> > >> EDS
> > > Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
> > > *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very
> > > different
> > > attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a disliek of
> > > monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to
> > > disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot of
> > > active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and any
> > > "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire field,
> > > precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. From what I've seen,
> > > sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
> > Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
> > The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a large
> > portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstand
> > she's
> > calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> > *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> > I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools where
> > everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other to
> > ones
> > own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> > 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their days it
> > seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in time
> > and
> > adjust to normalcy.
> > Now for something completely different.
> > Ever seen water witching?
> > I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> > Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get this,
> > with 2 pieces of wire.
> > I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lines on
> > the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> > Amazing.
> > I did it too, anybody can.
> > You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol, and
> > start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires will
> > sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop and
> > stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> > We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tank.
> > Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like watching
> > magnets, its invisible.
> > I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I wasn't
> > used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
> This superstition is still popular, but when *tested* it's no more
> effective than flipping a coin.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> I never heard of people finding underground pipes by flipping a coin, have
> you witnessed this?- Hide quoted text -

> >> > > [edited for bandwidth]
> >> > >>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia =
> >> > >>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit=
> >> > >>> of
> >> > >>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that
> >> > >>> will
> >> > >>> be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley convinced th=
> >> > >>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. Of course it=
> >> > >>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn=
> >> > >>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most=
> >> > >>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking abou=
> >> > >>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households,=
> >> > >>> and
> >> > >>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
> >> > >>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
> >> > >>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
> >> > >>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea=
> >> > >>> is
> >> > >>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
> >> > >> Kris,
> >> > >> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, divid=
> >> > >> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and=
> >> > >> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 1=
> >> > >> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to=
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visua=
> >> > >> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in=
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The
> >> > >> central
> >> > >> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
> >> > >> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
> >> > > I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures i=
> >> > > moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
> >> > > Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've
> >> > > lived.
> >> > > It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
> >> > > "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
> >> > > ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people
> >> > > coming
> >> > > in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhho=
> >> > > and
> >> > > trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu
> >> > > ethey
> >> > > see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things
> >> > > which
> >> > > turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever i=
> >> > > is
> >> > > that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collecti=
> >> > > of
> >> > > overpriced houses. THere is probably a more correct term for the
> >> > > process, but I don't know what it is...))
> >> > > ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe=
> >> > > expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ev=
> >> > > see
> >> > > people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peop=
> >> > > as
> >> > > I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an
> >> > > area
> >> > > where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help"=
> >> > > (usu.
> >> > > the people mowing the lawn).
> >> > > It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside an=
> >> > > shut
> >> > > the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around=
> >> > > poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me =
> >> > > say
> >> > > it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
> >> > > I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or
> >> > > what;
> >> > > it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyo=
> >> > > outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids,
> >> > > nobody.
> >> > > Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
> >> > >> We planted
> >> > >> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
> >> > >> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were buil=
> >> > >> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
> >> > >> good.
> >> > > That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The=
> >> > > better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, f=
> >> > > obvious reasons.
> >> > > One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does =
> >> > > fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
> >> > > afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. Bu=
> >> > > doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shodd=
> >> > > IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, bu=
> >> > > the
> >> > > noise, lacking a refuge.
> >> > > THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a=
> >> > > shit
> >> > > about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as th=
> >> > > can.
> >> > >> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
> >> > >> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within=
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for tra=
> >> > >> access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet
> >> > >> had
> >> > >> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
> >> > > Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence o=
> >> > > choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if y=
> >> > > are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction=
> >> > >> On those two blocks my girls
> >> > >> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of al=
> >> > >> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
> >> > >> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I=
> >> > >> was
> >> > >> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb,
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not a=
> >> > >> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and want=
> >> > >> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
> >> > >> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
> >> > >> EDS
> >> > > Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
> >> > > *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very
> >> > > different
> >> > > attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a disliek =
> >> > > monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to=
> >> > > disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot o=
> >> > > active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and an=
> >> > > "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire
> >> > > field,
> >> > > precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. From what I've seen=
> >> > > sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
> >> > Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
> >> > The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a
> >> > large
> >> > portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstan=
> >> > she's
> >> > calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> >> > *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> >> > I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools
> >> > where
> >> > everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other =
> >> > ones
> >> > own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> >> > 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their da=
> >> > it
> >> > seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in
> >> > time
> >> > and
> >> > adjust to normalcy.
> >> > Now for something completely different.
> >> > Ever seen water witching?
> >> > I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> >> > Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get
> >> > this,
> >> > with 2 pieces of wire.
> >> > I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lin=
> >> > on
> >> > the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> >> > Amazing.
> >> > I did it too, anybody can.
> >> > You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol=
> >> > and
> >> > start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires=
> >> > will
> >> > sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop a=
> >> > stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> >> > We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tan=
> >> > Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like
> >> > watching
> >> > magnets, its invisible.
> >> > I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I
> >> > wasn't
> >> > used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
> >> This superstition is still popular, but when *tested* it's no more
> >> effective than flipping a coin.
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >> I never heard of people finding underground pipes by flipping a coin,
> >> have
> >> you witnessed this?- Hide quoted text -
> > Many might *think* they can find underground things, thanks to a
> > little confirmation bias and so on, but the actual effectiveness is no
> > better than a random method such as flipping a coin.
> > There's a nice example here:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKRxKnjn704Y
> > Lots of dowsers volunteered for this test (a real, scientific test;
> > not one you can fudge). They all believed they could find the water.
> > They all failed, and *then* they found excuses. Failure did not affect
> > their belief.
> > There have been plenty of other tests.Dowsingis superstitious
> > nonsense.
> Your example is perfect, for that example.
> But it has nothing to do with the example that I wtinessed with my own eye=
> Again, there is no indication at all in my yard of where the septic tank i=
> located nor the *fingers* for the drainfield or the junctionbox.
> Yet the guy found them, precisely, with nothing but two pieces of L shaped=
> wire and a T rod.
> Both ends of (4) 90' long drainfield fingers, 1 concrete junction box and =
> concrete septic tank.
> I doubt the guy that did this is interested in silly tests set up to fail =
> he's way too busy making money with his skill.
> In many ways rural life seems like magic to city dwellers. =A0LOL
> BTW: Way back when I took a course in these things dealing with mysticism,=
> you know dousing, alien abductions, spontaneous human combustion, etc. and=
> never believed any of them.
> For me seeing is believing.