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Posted by EDS on March 21, 2008, 10:02 pm
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> [edited for bandwidth]
>>
>>>>
>>>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
>>>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit of
>>>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that will
>>>> be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley convinced that
>>>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. Of course it
>>>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn't
>>>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most
>>>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking about
>>>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households, and
>>>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
>>>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
>>>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea is
>>>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> Kris,
>>> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, divided
>>> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and
>>> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 12'
>>> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to the
>>> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visual
>>> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in the
>>> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The central
>>> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
>>> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
>>
>> I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
>> moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
>> Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've lived.
>> It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
>> "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>>
>> ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people coming
>> in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhhod and
>> trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu ethey
>> see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things which
>> turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever it is
>> that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of
>> overpriced houses. THere is probably a more correct term for the
>> process, but I don't know what it is...))
>>
>> ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
>> expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever see
>> people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peopel as
>> I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an area
>> where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help" (usu.
>> the people mowing the lawn).
>>
>> It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and shut
>> the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around
>> poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me to say
>> it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>>
>> I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or what;
>> it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyone
>> outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids, nobody.
>> Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>>
>>> We planted
>>> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
>>> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
>>> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
>>> good.
>>
>> That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The
>> better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
>> obvious reasons.
>>
>> One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
>> fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
>> afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. But
>> doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
>>
>> IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but the
>> noise, lacking a refuge.
>>
>> THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a shit
>> about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as they
>> can.
>>
>>
>>> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
>>> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within the
>>> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for trash
>>> access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet had
>>> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>>
>> Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
>> choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if you
>> are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction.
>>
>>
>>> On those two blocks my girls
>>> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
>>> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
>>> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I was
>>> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb, and
>>> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not as
>>> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and wanted
>>> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
>>> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
>>> EDS
>>
>> Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
>> *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very different
>> attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a disliek of
>> monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to
>> disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot of
>> active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and any
>> "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire field,
>> precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. From what I've seen,
>> sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
>
> Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
> The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a large
> portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstand
> she's calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools where
> everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other to
> ones own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their days it
> seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in time
> and adjust to normalcy.
>
> Now for something completely different.
> Ever seen water witching?
> I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get this,
> with 2 pieces of wire.
> I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lines on
> the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> Amazing.
> I did it too, anybody can.
> You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol, and
> start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires will
> sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop and
> stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tank.
> Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like watching
> magnets, its invisible.
> I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I wasn't
> used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
>
Saw it done just as you describe on a job in Vermont a while back. Also saw
it used to locate very old unmapped utility lines (including wood water
lines) in Boston at one time. I think they use ground radar or something now
as it doesn't upset the people that don't believe in water witching.
EDS
|
|
Posted by Kris Krieger on March 22, 2008, 12:55 am
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> [edited for bandwidth]
>>
>>>>
>>>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
>>>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit
>>>> of humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that
>>>> will be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley
>>>> convinced that isolated households are *universally* the best idea.
>>>> Of course it works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them,
>>>> but it doesn't work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as
>>>> being the most energy-conserving option. More and more, people are
>>>> thinking about arcologies and alternatives both to isolated
>>>> suburban households, and to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of
>>>> urban ugliness.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
>>>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
>>>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea
>>>> is also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> Kris,
>>> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859,
>>> divided with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16'
>>> wide and sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back
>>> another 12' and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a
>>> secondary stair to the lower level under the stoop. This made for a
>>> 600' X 80' foot visual stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all
>>> around. The cars parked in the street, forcing traffic to move
>>> slowly through the block. The central area had a grand cast iron
>>> fountain, and 12 full grown trees surrounded by a wrought iron
>>> fence, with several gates.
>>
>> I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
>> moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
>> Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've
>> lived. It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and
>> started "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>>
>> ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people
>> coming in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the
>> neighborhhod and trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr,
>> move in becasu ethey see nothing more than an "investment
>> opportunity", and do things which turn the houses "inward" so to
>> speak, and end up ruining whatever it is that make s a neighborhood a
>> neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of overpriced houses. THere
>> is probably a more correct term for the process, but I don't know
>> what it is...))
>>
>> ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
>> expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever
>> see people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around
>> peopel as I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to
>> be in an area where the only people you ever seem to see outside are
>> "hired help" (usu. the people mowing the lawn).
>>
>> It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and
>> shut the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous
>> around poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic,
>> for me to say it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>>
>> I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or
>> what; it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say
>> anyone outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids,
>> nobody. Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>>
>>> We planted
>>> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
>>> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
>>> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
>>> good.
>>
>> That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The
>> better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
>> obvious reasons.
>>
>> One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
>> fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
>> afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. But
>> doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
>>
>> IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but
>> the noise, lacking a refuge.
>>
>> THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a
>> shit about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as
>> they can.
>>
>>
>>> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
>>> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within
>>> the City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for
>>> trash access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted,
>>> yet had easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>>
>> Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
>> choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if
>> you are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced
>> interaction.
>>
>>
>>> On those two blocks my girls
>>> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
>>> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
>>> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I
>>> was at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in
>>> suburb, and have good public access and ferry service to the City,
>>> it is not as close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved
>>> in and wanted everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the
>>> fun. I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
>>> EDS
>>
>> Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
>> *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very
>> different attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a
>> disliek of monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always
>> susceptable to disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e.
>> require a lot of active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to
>> maintain them, and any "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a
>> threat to the entire field, precisely becasue monocultures are less
>> robust. From what I've seen, sociological monoculture isn't all that
>> different.
>
> Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
Well of course you may! ;)
I made it up, but it just does seem to sum up a lot of a certain sort of
attitude.
> The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a
> large portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I
> undertstand she's calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly
> keeps community *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people
> be.
Suggestions are one thing, but one also has to be open to the idea that
what one thinks of as community imporvement, might actually be (and
probably is) just a matter of personal taste. What people call
"improvement" is usually nothing more than appearances.
IMO, community improvement focuses upon teh *community*, i.e. what is
good first and formost for kids (since miserable kids too often turn into
destructive teens), and what is beneficial to everyone. Crap like
whether your lawn constantly looks like it was edged with a razor is BS.
> I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the
> schools where everybody is considered one and should be looking out
> for each other to ones own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
I don't even see it as being that deep - it's a matter of conformity
being given more value than creativity, more value than even mental
health. Ever read "Beaneath the Wheel" by Hermann Hesse?
> 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their
> days it seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over
> it in time and adjust to normalcy.
A lot of teen rebellion IMO starts as an attempt to assert individuality,
but without guidance as to what does and does not constitute
individulaity, a lot fo teens get lost in the idea that being
"different" means being exactly like their friends/"peers" in dress,
deportment, deed, and worst of all, thought.
THat's where a ot of debt problems arise, tho' - gotta have that big ol'
gas-guzzling (i.e. expensive to run) SUV and a house big enough for 10,
and why?, well, because "everyone else does". Poeple want to be
respected, but have been indoctrinated to think that social desireability
is a matter of having what TV sez is bought by "successful" people and/or
"other people"/"everyone else".
ANd it ends up becomeing true, and people who don't have X, Y, and Z are
disregarded, because posessions, and conformity, become more hihgly
valued than are things like ethics, character, and other intangeables.
>
> Now for something completely different.
> Ever seen water witching?
You mean Dowsing...? Yup...
> I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get
> this, with 2 pieces of wire.
> I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing
> lines on the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> Amazing.
> I did it too, anybody can.
> You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol,
> and start walking and when you cross something under the ground the
> wires will sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other
> you stop and stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
I an certain it's either
(1) the subconscious recognition of places where water is likely to
collect,
and/or
(2) a high water table.
A lot of what gets called "paranormal" or "spooky" is actually jsut a
matter of subconscious expression - it's similar to how "intuition" can
be the subconscious accumulation, filtering, and analysis of data. Which
is why it"works better" for poele who have experience doing it. IOW, not
magic and not paranormal, but the often-amazing human subconscious;)
> We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic
> tank. Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda
> like watching magnets, its invisible.
> I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I
> wasn't used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
It *is* a hoot (hey, *any* reason for a party <L!>) - but as above, I
think it's a human skill, not in itself an accurate technique.
The mind can be such an amazing thing, even (or maybe especially?) when
we're not aware of what it's doing :)
|
|
Posted by bobrayner on March 27, 2008, 11:34 am
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > [edited for bandwidth]
>
> >>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
> >>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit of
> >>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that will
> >>> be as beneficial as possible. =A0And I'm not absolutley convinced that=
> >>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. =A0Of course it
> >>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn't
> >>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most
> >>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking about
> >>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households, and
> >>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
>
> >>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
> >>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
> >>> practical and current problems. =A0But the "central greenhouse" idea i=
s
> >>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>
> >> Kris,
> >> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, =A0divided=
> >> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and
> >> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 12'
> >> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to the
> >> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visual
> >> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in the
> >> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The central
> >> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
> >> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
>
> > I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
> > moving". =A0One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
> > Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've lived.
> > It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
> > "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>
> > ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people coming
> > in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhhod and=
> > trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu ethey=
> > see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things which
> > turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever it is
> > that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of=
> > overpriced houses. =A0THere is probably a more correct term for the
> > process, but I don't know what it is...))
>
> > ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
> > expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever se=
e
> > people *outside*. =A0As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peopel=
as
> > I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an area
> > where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help" (usu=
.
> > the people mowing the lawn).
>
> > It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and shu=
t
> > the doors". =A0And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around
> > poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me to sa=
y
> > it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>
> > I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or what;=
> > it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyone
> > outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids, nobody.
> > Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>
> >> We planted
> >> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
> >> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
> >> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
> >> good.
>
> > That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. =A0The
> > better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
> > obvious reasons.
>
> > One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
> > fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
> > afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. =A0But
> > doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
>
> > IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but the=
> > noise, lacking a refuge.
>
> > THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a shit=
> > about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as they
> > can.
>
> >> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
> >> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within the
> >> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for trash
> >> access. =A0We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet ha=
d
> >> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>
> > Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
> > choice. =A0I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if you=
> > are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction.
>
> >> On those two blocks my girls
> >> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
> >> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
> >> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I was
> >> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb, and
> >> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not as
> >> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and wanted
> >> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
> >> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
> >> EDS
>
> > Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. =A0It's odd, because
> > *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very differen=
t
> > attitudes about most things. =A0One of which is that I have a disliek of=
> > monoculture. =A0In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to
> > disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot of
> > active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and any
> > "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire field,
> > precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. =A0From what I've seen,
> > sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
>
> Snootification. Can I use that? =A0LOL
> The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a large
> portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstand she=
's
> calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools where=
> everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other to on=
es
> own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their days it=
> seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in time a=
nd
> adjust to normalcy.
>
> Now for something completely different.
> Ever seen water witching?
> I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get this,=
> with 2 pieces of wire.
> I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lines on=
> the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> Amazing.
> I did it too, anybody can.
> You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol, and=
> start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires will=
> sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop and
> stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tank.
> Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like watching=
> magnets, its invisible.
> I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I wasn't=
> used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
This superstition is still popular, but when *tested* it's no more
effective than flipping a coin.
|
|
Posted by bobrayner on March 31, 2008, 7:54 am
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > [edited for bandwidth]
>
> > >>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia -
> > >>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit of
> > >>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that will
> > >>> be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley convinced that
> > >>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. Of course it
> > >>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn't
> > >>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most
> > >>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking about
> > >>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households, and
> > >>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
>
> > >>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
> > >>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
> > >>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea is
> > >>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>
> > >> Kris,
> > >> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, divided
> > >> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and
> > >> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 12'
> > >> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to the
> > >> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visual
> > >> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in the
> > >> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The central
> > >> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
> > >> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
>
> > > I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures in
> > > moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
> > > Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've lived.
> > > It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
> > > "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>
> > > ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people coming
> > > in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhhod and
> > > trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu ethey
> > > see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things which
> > > turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever it is
> > > that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collection of
> > > overpriced houses. THere is probably a more correct term for the
> > > process, but I don't know what it is...))
>
> > > ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe
> > > expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ever
> > > see
> > > people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peopel as
> > > I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an area
> > > where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help"
> > > (usu.
> > > the people mowing the lawn).
>
> > > It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside and
> > > shut
> > > the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around
> > > poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me to
> > > say
> > > it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>
> > > I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or what;
> > > it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyone
> > > outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids, nobody.
> > > Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>
> > >> We planted
> > >> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
> > >> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were built
> > >> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
> > >> good.
>
> > > That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The
> > > better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, for
> > > obvious reasons.
>
> > > One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does in
> > > fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
> > > afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. But
> > > doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shoddy.
>
> > > IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, but the
> > > noise, lacking a refuge.
>
> > > THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a shit
> > > about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as they
> > > can.
>
> > >> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
> > >> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within the
> > >> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for trash
> > >> access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet had
> > >> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>
> > > Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence of
> > > choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if you
> > > are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction.
>
> > >> On those two blocks my girls
> > >> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of all
> > >> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
> > >> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I was
> > >> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb, and
> > >> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not as
> > >> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and wanted
> > >> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
> > >> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
> > >> EDS
>
> > > Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
> > > *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very
> > > different
> > > attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a disliek of
> > > monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to
> > > disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot of
> > > active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and any
> > > "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire field,
> > > precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. From what I've seen,
> > > sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
>
> > Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
> > The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a large
> > portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstand
> > she's
> > calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> > *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> > I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools where
> > everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other to
> > ones
> > own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> > 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their days it
> > seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in time
> > and
> > adjust to normalcy.
>
> > Now for something completely different.
> > Ever seen water witching?
> > I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> > Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get this,
> > with 2 pieces of wire.
> > I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lines on
> > the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> > Amazing.
> > I did it too, anybody can.
> > You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol, and
> > start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires will
> > sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop and
> > stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> > We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tank.
> > Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like watching
> > magnets, its invisible.
> > I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I wasn't
> > used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
>
> This superstition is still popular, but when *tested* it's no more
> effective than flipping a coin.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> I never heard of people finding underground pipes by flipping a coin, have
> you witnessed this?- Hide quoted text -
Many might *think* they can find underground things, thanks to a
little confirmation bias and so on, but the actual effectiveness is no
better than a random method such as flipping a coin.
There's a nice example here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRxKnjn704Y
Lots of dowsers volunteered for this test (a real, scientific test;
not one you can fudge). They all believed they could find the water.
They all failed, and *then* they found excuses. Failure did not affect
their belief.
There have been plenty of other tests. Dowsing is superstitious
nonsense.
|
|
Posted by bobrayner on April 1, 2008, 7:19 am
>
>
>
.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> > > [edited for bandwidth]
>
> >> > >>> I do not beleive in utopia, but I also don't beleive in dystopia =
-
> >> > >>> there *is* a large middle ground, and I think it's to the benefit=
> >> > >>> of
> >> > >>> humans to actively seek out that middle ground, seek ideas that
> >> > >>> will
> >> > >>> be as beneficial as possible. And I'm not absolutley convinced th=
at
> >> > >>> isolated households are *universally* the best idea. Of course it=
> >> > >>> works for a lot fo people, myself being one of them, but it doesn=
't
> >> > >>> work for everyone and it also doesn't strike me as being the most=
> >> > >>> energy-conserving option. More and more, people are thinking abou=
t
> >> > >>> arcologies and alternatives both to isolated suburban households,=
> >> > >>> and
> >> > >>> to haphazard or dehumanizing forms of urban ugliness.
>
> >> > >>> Of course, questions remain reagarding what to do with
> >> > >>> things-as-they- are, and how to find practical solutions for
> >> > >>> practical and current problems. But the "central greenhouse" idea=
> >> > >>> is
> >> > >>> also a bit of interesting futuristic speculation ;)
>
> >> > >> Kris,
> >> > >> The block we lived on in Boston was a street, built in 1859, divid=
ed
> >> > >> with a 10' park in the middle. Each drivable side was 16' wide and=
> >> > >> sidewalks were 6', with brick 4 story rowhouses set back another 1=
2'
> >> > >> and a flight of stairs to the main doors, but a secondary stair to=
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> lower level under the stoop. This made for a 600' X 80' foot visua=
l
> >> > >> stadium with bleachers (the stoops) all around. The cars parked in=
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> street, forcing traffic to move slowly through the block. The
> >> > >> central
> >> > >> area had a grand cast iron fountain, and 12 full grown trees
> >> > >> surrounded by a wrought iron fence, with several gates.
>
> >> > > I've seen a few similar older neighborhoods during my "adventures i=
n
> >> > > moving". One of the nicest was an old neighborhood in the town of
> >> > > Monrovia, CA - one of my personal all-time favorite places I've
> >> > > lived.
> >> > > It only started to go downhill when Yuppies came in and started
> >> > > "snootifying" it, which is about when we moved.
>
> >> > > ((Tangentially, what I call "snootifying" is when you get people
> >> > > coming
> >> > > in who aren't interested in being in and/or part of the neighborhho=
d
> >> > > and
> >> > > trying to make the neighborhhod better, but ratehr, move in becasu
> >> > > ethey
> >> > > see nothing more than an "investment opportunity", and do things
> >> > > which
> >> > > turn the houses "inward" so to speak, and end up ruining whatever i=
t
> >> > > is
> >> > > that make s a neighborhood a neighborhood, as opposed to a collecti=
on
> >> > > of
> >> > > overpriced houses. THere is probably a more correct term for the
> >> > > process, but I don't know what it is...))
>
> >> > > ANyway, it often has seemed to me that the bigger (or at least mroe=
> >> > > expensive) the houses are in an area, th eless likely you are to ev=
er
> >> > > see
> >> > > people *outside*. As misanthropic, interoverted, and ns around peop=
el
> >> > > as
> >> > > I am, I neverthelsee find it disturbing and depressing to be in an
> >> > > area
> >> > > where the only people you ever seem to see outside are "hired help"=
> >> > > (usu.
> >> > > the people mowing the lawn).
>
> >> > > It's bizarre to me, the extent to which people have "gone inside an=
d
> >> > > shut
> >> > > the doors". And, considering that I tend to be very bnervous around=
> >> > > poeple and am an introvert and often somewhat misanthropic, for me =
to
> >> > > say
> >> > > it's bizarre, it has to be *exceedingly* bizarre.
>
> >> > > I don't know whetehr it's just car-centrism, or computer-ficus, or
> >> > > what;
> >> > > it just has seemed so weird to be in areas where you never say anyo=
ne
> >> > > outside, even when the weather was great - no adults, no kids,
> >> > > nobody.
> >> > > Gives me the creeps, to be honest.
>
> >> > >> We planted
> >> > >> flowers, had rib cook-outs, watermelon eating contests, Halloween
> >> > >> parties in the street around the fountain. The rowhouses were buil=
t
> >> > >> with 12" masonry separating walls, so acoustical privacy was very
> >> > >> good.
>
> >> > > That's one of the things that has been lost - soudn insulation. The=
> >> > > better it is, the better people can tolerate high-density living, f=
or
> >> > > obvious reasons.
>
> >> > > One of the big problem with shoddy cluster-housing is that it does =
in
> >> > > fact ddrive epole into detatched housing (as detatched as they can
> >> > > afford), because that cuts down on the noise from the neighbors. Bu=
t
> >> > > doesn't necessarily eliminate it, if the detatched housing is shodd=
y.
>
> >> > > IMO, what makes people crazy isn't so much high-denisity living, bu=
t
> >> > > the
> >> > > noise, lacking a refuge.
>
> >> > > THe problem is that North American builders/developers don't give a=
> >> > > shit
> >> > > about that because they only want to wring out as much profit as th=
ey
> >> > > can.
>
> >> > >> That block and a similar one next street over did many things
> >> > >> together, with a total of about 150 units we were a village within=
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> City. There were alleys between the main streets, but only for tra=
sh
> >> > >> access. We could remain private and separated when we wanted, yet
> >> > >> had
> >> > >> easy casual access to all our neighbors.
>
> >> > > Yup, the secret of tolerable high density living is the existence o=
f
> >> > > choice. I include noise reduction in taht, because in a sense, if y=
ou
> >> > > are constanyl subjected to noise, it's a form of forced interaction=
.
>
> >> > >> On those two blocks my girls
> >> > >> grew up with about 100 other kids of the same age range, but of al=
l
> >> > >> ethnic and financial backgrounds, and with whom they remained
> >> > >> friendly. WE could walk or bicycle to Back Bay in a few minutes, I=
> >> > >> was
> >> > >> at work in 10 minutes. Although We now live in a close-in suburb,
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> have good public access and ferry service to the City, it is not a=
s
> >> > >> close and pleasant. Why did we move? The Yuppies moved in and want=
ed
> >> > >> everyone to be like them, boring, and that spoiled the fun.
> >> > >> I've always felt that was an ideal urban area.
> >> > >> EDS
>
> >> > > Oh, don't get me started on Yuppification. It's odd, because
> >> > > *technically*, I was a "yuppie" in a sense, but I had/have very
> >> > > different
> >> > > attitudes about most things. One of which is that I have a disliek =
of
> >> > > monoculture. In agriculture, monocultures are always susceptable to=
> >> > > disease aqnd tend to be very high-maintenance, i.e. require a lot o=
f
> >> > > active work/input (of chemicals and so on) to maintain them, and an=
y
> >> > > "stray" plant is seen as a weed, i.e. as a threat to the entire
> >> > > field,
> >> > > precisely becasue monocultures are less robust. From what I've seen=
,
> >> > > sociological monoculture isn't all that different.
>
> >> > Snootification. Can I use that? LOL
> >> > The cake lady down the road is inflicted with that, having spent a
> >> > large
> >> > portion of her earlier life in urbania or suburbania but I undertstan=
d
> >> > she's
> >> > calmed down quite a bit over the years and mainly keeps community
> >> > *improvement* ideas to herself and lets other people be.
> >> > I think snootification is ingrained through childhood in the schools
> >> > where
> >> > everybody is considered one and should be looking out for each other =
to
> >> > ones
> >> > own detriment, that is, forfeiture of self.
> >> > 12 years of such indoctrination can haunt some people all of their da=
ys
> >> > it
> >> > seems while a small minority, upon entering reality, get over it in
> >> > time
> >> > and
> >> > adjust to normalcy.
>
> >> > Now for something completely different.
> >> > Ever seen water witching?
> >> > I got a good dose of it again yesterday.
> >> > Jr Cody came by and mapped out our septic system and drainfield, get
> >> > this,
> >> > with 2 pieces of wire.
> >> > I was following behind with the flourescent paint can and drawing lin=
es
> >> > on
> >> > the ground where his wires, literally, crossed.
> >> > Amazing.
> >> > I did it too, anybody can.
> >> > You hold an L shaped wire in each hand, pointed forward like a pistol=
,
> >> > and
> >> > start walking and when you cross something under the ground the wires=
> >> > will
> >> > sudenely pivot in your hand and when they cross each other you stop a=
nd
> >> > stick your T down in the ground until you hit something.
> >> > We found all the drainfield fingers and all corners of the septic tan=
k.
> >> > Watching the wires react by themselves in your hand is kinda like
> >> > watching
> >> > magnets, its invisible.
> >> > I was laughing involuntarily and Jr thought I was on crack, cause I
> >> > wasn't
> >> > used to such a thing, as he's been doing it all his life.
>
> >> This superstition is still popular, but when *tested* it's no more
> >> effective than flipping a coin.
>
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> >> I never heard of people finding underground pipes by flipping a coin,
> >> have
> >> you witnessed this?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Many might *think* they can find underground things, thanks to a
> > little confirmation bias and so on, but the actual effectiveness is no
> > better than a random method such as flipping a coin.
>
> > There's a nice example here:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKRxKnjn704Y
> > Lots of dowsers volunteered for this test (a real, scientific test;
> > not one you can fudge). They all believed they could find the water.
> > They all failed, and *then* they found excuses. Failure did not affect
> > their belief.
>
> > There have been plenty of other tests.Dowsingis superstitious
> > nonsense.
>
> Your example is perfect, for that example.
> But it has nothing to do with the example that I wtinessed with my own eye=
s.
> Again, there is no indication at all in my yard of where the septic tank i=
s
> located nor the *fingers* for the drainfield or the junctionbox.
> Yet the guy found them, precisely, with nothing but two pieces of L shaped=
> wire and a T rod.
> Both ends of (4) 90' long drainfield fingers, 1 concrete junction box and =
1
> concrete septic tank.
> I doubt the guy that did this is interested in silly tests set up to fail =
as
> he's way too busy making money with his skill.
> In many ways rural life seems like magic to city dwellers. =A0LOL
> BTW: Way back when I took a course in these things dealing with mysticism,=
> you know dousing, alien abductions, spontaneous human combustion, etc. and=
I
> never believed any of them.
> For me seeing is believing.
Interesting, that. Lots of dowsers have anecdotes that it works.
However, it mysteriously stops working when skeptics look closely.
This happens over and over again.
Perhaps you could explain how dowsing works? Please don't spare any
complexities. I may only have a degree in physics, but I'm prepared to
learn how dowsers rewrite widely-accepted modern principles. I'm also
curious how dowsing magically works in your anecdotes, but suddenly
stops working when people look too closely.
Perhaps you could explain why the guy "making money with his skill"
hasn't gone for Randi's million dollar offer. If what you say is true,
he could easily become a millionaire - merely by a successful feat of
dowsing before a skeptical audience. I wonder why he hasn't done that?
Perhaps he's way too busy fleecing the credulous and gullible.
|
Page 2 of 2 << first < 1 2
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