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Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Se=F1ior_Popcor on September 7, 2009, 3:06 pm
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> creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@g=
mail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@yaho=
o.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@=
gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at a 19=
th century
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn't worth =
the effort.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prior to tha=
t the animals
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was salvage=
able but the
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walked.
> > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemble an 18=
th century
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double dovetai=
l) and
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it. What a =
job.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kindergarten.
> > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x12" colu=
mn and it
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the first on=
e all the way
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the building, t=
he drift
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was solid maple=
> > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, where, l=
ike you said,
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> > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, and a con=
stant
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention the cost.
> > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightly more t=
han sticks.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sticks, unl=
ess for
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale renders the=
ir stick-
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they might d=
o well to
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 'timberfra=
mes') are
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in the sho=
rt too, if
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people don't seem=
to
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> > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're still not=
that much
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> > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it for what =
you get,
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> > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their frames, bent=
s and/or
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed offsite; =
if a
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (and even =
in total);
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> > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the site.
> > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn't much =
more
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> > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themselves, th=
e labor
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> > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of the hea=
vy timers
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> > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is purely =
cosmetic!
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> > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed to cosme=
tic,
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> > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expensive in =
total
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> > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, but I'm =
still
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> > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timbers for ho=
> > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are reusabl=
> > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (larger diamet=
> > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create better s=
paces;
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> > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred by many =
people
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> > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint (and th=
erefore
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> > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resale/rental
> > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residential constr=
uction
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> > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such other fill=
> > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Build', by =
Duo
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> > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away from the=
posts
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> > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can swing
> > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), so that =
there's
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> > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they made th=
e walls
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> > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, from sheds=
and
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> > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PABs.
> > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that can affo=
rd them
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> > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very nice PAB.
> > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of the popul=
ation
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> > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except roof
> > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams and
> > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on the
> > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in that regar=
> > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then there is
> > > > the internet.
> > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construction I
> > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can provide the
> > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble the parts
> > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of the costs
> > > > involved.
> > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I built ca=
> > > > be called that.
> > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > Ken
> > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam like
> > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Post &
> > Beam construction.
> > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but its a
> > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the costs
> > are already known.
> > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of what I
> > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the numbers
> > and my labor was free.
> > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside help is
> > required.
> > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about has
> > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-longs and
> > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> Western construction we all know and love.
> Ken
It's another nice little build, Ken, and I think they conform well to
human scale. Just because the wood is scaled down, too, doesn't mean
it's not a PAB.
There are a lot of gorgeous PAB cabins out there that I often find far
more attractive than many stick-framed houses of any size.
Don, as I've already insinuated, if not mentioned, they appear to be
far less than what you're suggesting (which would stand to reason,
unless perhaps you factor in greed or lack of knowledge and
experience) and there appear to be far more perks with PABs that you
don't get with sticks. (Prefab used to be, or was/is supposed to be,
cheap was/is it?)
Frankly, I'm unsure I like sticks all that much, now that I think
about it, and would probably want a serious discount to have one
designed/built for me. So there's an added cost for sticks right
there.
If you design for McMansion stick-builts, then I suppose I can
understand where you're coming from.
A quote from:
http://timberframeconsultants.net/pb_vs_tf.htm
"A simple way to compare timber frame to stick built is to point out
that conventionally framed homes can be pretty dull unless they get
tricked out substantially with crown moldings, paneling, tray ceilings
and so on... These kinds of treatments can cause construction costs to
equal or exceed the cost of timber frame construction.
...even a 5/12 pitched ceiling done in timber framing with wood
decking is visually exciting and gives the room a very spacious
feeling. Compare that to... see that even with a steeper pitch, a
cathedral, sheetrocked ceiling is somewhat cold and austere."
As always, your incentives to do my homework/research are, oddly
enough, appreciated.
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Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Se=F1ior_Popcor on September 10, 2009, 1:05 pm
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> Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> ...http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > Ken
> > It's another nice little build, Ken, and I think they conform well to
> > human scale. Just because the wood is scaled down, too, doesn't mean
> > it's not a PAB.
> > There are a lot of gorgeous PAB cabins out there that I often find far
> > more attractive than many stick-framed houses of any size.
> > Don, as I've already insinuated, if not mentioned, they appear to be
> > far less than what you're suggesting (which would stand to reason,
> > unless perhaps you factor in greed or lack of knowledge and
> > experience) and there appear to be far more perks with PABs that you
> > don't get with sticks. (Prefab used to be, or was/is supposed to be,
> > cheap was/is it?)
> > Frankly, I'm unsure I like sticks all that much, now that I think
> > about it, and would probably want a serious discount to have one
> > designed/built for me. So there's an added cost for sticks right
> > there.
> > If you design for McMansion stick-builts, then I suppose I can
> > understand where you're coming from.
> > A quote from:
> >http://timberframeconsultants.net/pb_vs_tf.htm
> > "A simple way to compare timber frame to stick built is to point out
> > that conventionally framed homes can be pretty dull unless they get
> > tricked out substantially with crown moldings, paneling, tray ceilings
> > and so on... These kinds of treatments can cause construction costs to
> > equal or exceed the cost of timber frame construction.
> > ...even a 5/12 pitched ceiling done in timber framing with wood
> > decking is visually exciting and gives the room a very spacious
> > feeling. Compare that to... see that even with a steeper pitch, a
> > cathedral, sheetrocked ceiling is somewhat cold and austere."
> > As always, your incentives to do my homework/research are, oddly
> > enough, appreciated.
> Personally I respect "stick-built", it provides practical
> high quality 'western construction' homes economically,
> and is versatile.
I'm reading more about them and they're looking less attractive,
versatile, recyclable, and more expensive (such as in the long-run)
the more I read. Apparently, they were designed to lessen the skill-
set requirements of the average tradesperson.
Do we include "intangibilities" such as desirability or level-of-
happiness, in the cost-benefit analyses of stick-builts, or anything
else for that matter?
There's the nice Rideau River near here that I'd like to swim in, but
it may be too polluted. Do we want/need the cars and/or industries
responsible for the polluting, or do we want/need a clean river right
in our backyard (that we don't need a car to get to) that we can swim
in and eat fish/ducks from?
show/hide quoted text
> Mr. Popcorn, do you have a lot yet?
> Will you DIYer or subcontract your new house building?
Not yet. I am looking at about 4 years to set everything up (probably
more than just a house).
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Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 11, 2009, 9:46 am
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> > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > ...http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > > Ken
> > > It's another nice little build, Ken, and I think they conform well to
> > > human scale. Just because the wood is scaled down, too, doesn't mean
> > > it's not a PAB.
> > > There are a lot of gorgeous PAB cabins out there that I often find fa=
> > > more attractive than many stick-framed houses of any size.
> > > Don, as I've already insinuated, if not mentioned, they appear to be
> > > far less than what you're suggesting (which would stand to reason,
> > > unless perhaps you factor in greed or lack of knowledge and
> > > experience) and there appear to be far more perks with PABs that you
> > > don't get with sticks. (Prefab used to be, or was/is supposed to be,
> > > cheap was/is it?)
> > > Frankly, I'm unsure I like sticks all that much, now that I think
> > > about it, and would probably want a serious discount to have one
> > > designed/built for me. So there's an added cost for sticks right
> > > there.
> > > If you design for McMansion stick-builts, then I suppose I can
> > > understand where you're coming from.
> > > A quote from:
> > >http://timberframeconsultants.net/pb_vs_tf.htm
> > > "A simple way to compare timber frame to stick built is to point out
> > > that conventionally framed homes can be pretty dull unless they get
> > > tricked out substantially with crown moldings, paneling, tray ceiling=
> > > and so on... These kinds of treatments can cause construction costs t=
> > > equal or exceed the cost of timber frame construction.
> > > ...even a 5/12 pitched ceiling done in timber framing with wood
> > > decking is visually exciting and gives the room a very spacious
> > > feeling. Compare that to... see that even with a steeper pitch, a
> > > cathedral, sheetrocked ceiling is somewhat cold and austere."
> > > As always, your incentives to do my homework/research are, oddly
> > > enough, appreciated.
> > Personally I respect "stick-built", it provides practical
> > high quality 'western construction' homes economically,
> > and is versatile.
> I'm reading more about them and they're looking less attractive,
> versatile, recyclable, and more expensive (such as in the long-run)
> the more I read. Apparently, they were designed to lessen the skill-
> set requirements of the average tradesperson.
> Do we include "intangibilities" such as desirability or level-of-
> happiness, in the cost-benefit analyses of stick-builts, or anything
> else for that matter?
> There's the nice Rideau River near here that I'd like to swim in, but
> it may be too polluted. Do we want/need the cars and/or industries
> responsible for the polluting, or do we want/need a clean river right
> in our backyard (that we don't need a car to get to) that we can swim
> in and eat fish/ducks from?
> > Mr. Popcorn, do you have a lot yet?
> > Will you DIYer or subcontract your new house building?
> Not yet. I am looking at about 4 years to set everything up (probably
> more than just a house).
Tip:
Now is a good time to buy land as it is just about bottomed out
pricewise.
It may go even cheaper but thats a gamble.
When we built in 2002 we already owned the land, which we paid $3500
for and at the time we applied for the construction loan the lot
appraised at $24,000.
What that means is the equity in our lot was assumed as the major part
of our down payment, but we still had to come up with another $10k at
closing.
None of that has anything to do with the $40k out of pocket I spent
during construction, especially in the last month or so before we got
the CO.
Everything costs more than it costs and takes longer than it takes.
Keep in mind that you pay the increasing interest on the construction
loan while the house is being built.
Its a monthly payment and increases with the amount of money the bank
doles out. They don't give you the full loan amount up front but
rather issue *draws* while the thing is going on. In July 2002, the
last full month of construction on the new house we had to pay more
than $2500 for the monthly payment on the house we were living in and
the new one. Thats tough and we continued to pay that amount til we
sold the old house in Nov 2002.
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Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 11, 2009, 9:36 am
show/hide quoted text
> creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@g=
mail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@yaho=
o.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@=
gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at a 19=
th century
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn't worth =
the effort.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prior to tha=
t the animals
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was salvage=
able but the
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walked.
> > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemble an 18=
th century
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double dovetai=
l) and
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it. What a =
job.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kindergarten.
> > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x12" colu=
mn and it
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the first on=
e all the way
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the building, t=
he drift
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was solid maple=
> > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, where, l=
ike you said,
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, and a con=
stant
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention the cost.
> > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightly more t=
han sticks.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sticks, unl=
ess for
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale renders the=
ir stick-
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they might d=
o well to
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 'timberfra=
mes') are
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in the sho=
rt too, if
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people don't seem=
to
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're still not=
that much
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it for what =
you get,
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their frames, bent=
s and/or
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed offsite; =
if a
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (and even =
in total);
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the site.
> > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn't much =
more
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themselves, th=
e labor
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of the hea=
vy timers
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is purely =
cosmetic!
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed to cosme=
tic,
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expensive in =
total
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, but I'm =
still
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timbers for ho=
> > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are reusabl=
> > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (larger diamet=
> > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create better s=
paces;
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred by many =
people
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint (and th=
erefore
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resale/rental
> > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residential constr=
uction
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such other fill=
> > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Build', by =
Duo
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away from the=
posts
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can swing
> > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), so that =
there's
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they made th=
e walls
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, from sheds=
and
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PABs.
> > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that can affo=
rd them
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very nice PAB.
> > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of the popul=
ation
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except roof
> > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams and
> > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on the
> > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in that regar=
> > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then there is
> > > > the internet.
> > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construction I
> > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can provide the
> > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble the parts
> > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of the costs
> > > > involved.
> > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I built ca=
> > > > be called that.
> > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > Ken
> > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam like
> > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Post &
> > Beam construction.
> > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but its a
> > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the costs
> > are already known.
> > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of what I
> > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the numbers
> > and my labor was free.
> > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside help is
> > required.
> > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about has
> > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-longs and
> > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> Western construction we all know and love.
> Ken
Yes, it was standard stick built construction and there's no shame in
that.
Its affordable, very strong and if done properly meets all codes.
|
|
Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 12, 2009, 8:45 pm
show/hide quoted text
> creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
ote:
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1.=
..@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@=
yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1=
...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at =
a 19th century
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn't wo=
rth the effort.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prior to=
that the animals
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was sal=
vageable but the
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walked.
> > > > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemble a=
n 18th century
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double dov=
etail) and
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it. Wha=
t a job.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kindergart=
en.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x12" =
column and it
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the firs=
t one all the way
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the buildin=
g, the drift
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was solid m=
aple.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, wher=
e, like you said,
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, and a=
constant
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention the c=
ost.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightly mo=
re than sticks.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sticks,=
unless for
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale renders=
their stick-
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they mig=
ht do well to
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 'timbe=
rframes') are
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in the=
short too, if
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people don't =
seem to
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're still=
not that much
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it for w=
hat you get,
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their frames, =
bents and/or
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed offsi=
te; if a
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (and e=
ven in total);
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the site.
> > > > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn't m=
uch more
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themselves=
, the labor
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of the=
heavy timers
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is pur=
ely cosmetic!
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed to c=
osmetic,
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expensive=
in total
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, but =
I'm still
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timbers fo=
r home
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are reu=
sable
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (larger di=
ameter
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create bett=
er spaces;
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred by m=
any people
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint (an=
d therefore
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resale/re=
ntal
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residential co=
nstruction
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such other =
filler
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Build',=
by Duo
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away from=
the posts
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can swi=
> > > > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), so t=
hat there's
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they mad=
e the walls
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, from s=
heds and
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PABs.
> > > > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that can =
afford them
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very nice P=
AB.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of the p=
opulation
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except roof
> > > > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams and
> > > > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on the
> > > > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in that r=
egard.
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then ther=
e is
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > the internet.
> > > > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construction=
> > > > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can provide =
the
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble the p=
arts
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of the c=
osts
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > involved.
> > > > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I buil=
t can
show/hide quoted text
> > > > > > be called that.
> > > > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam lik=
> > > > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Post &
> > > > Beam construction.
> > > > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but its a
> > > > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > > > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the costs
> > > > are already known.
> > > > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of what I
> > > > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the numbers
> > > > and my labor was free.
> > > > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside help=
is
show/hide quoted text
> > > > required.
> > > > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about has
> > > > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-longs an=
> > > > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > Ken
> > Yes, it was standard stick built construction and there's no shame in
> > that.
> > Its affordable, very strong and if done properly meets all codes.
> This is a bit semantical, I presume the term "standard stick"
> implies 'Western Construction' , well the P&B we did needed
> different engineering than simple WC.
> Heres some of the story: I spec'd a 12x24 shop on swampy ground,
> that would have a tendency to heave cuz of frost, so the posts were
> built on threaded rods so the nuts could be used for seasonal
> leveling.
> =A0The design's were done and construction began, but then wifey
> ordered a 16x24 addition to the front, (that's the part you see in the
> last photo with the doors open). So I agreed to build that addition
> using
> the P&B method, still on swampy ground, it's not WC, cuz of the
> foundation requirements.
> For example, the P&B design enabled two 8x8 doors to be opened to
> air the shop, south exposed, and another east door for cross vent,
> which was nice when painting or building saw dust.
> P&B has a differerent engineering than WC. WC has dedicated headers
> but the P&B (I did) has full headers on the perimeter and interior
> walls,
> so one can remove a wall, mod it, and/or replace it, something that
> can't
> easily be done using standard WC.
> Ken
Lots of sites have *conditions* that are less than ideal and the
experienced framer will deal with it accordingly using the design
basics and any required engineering. I've seen threaded rods 30' long
from the top plate of the 3rd floor to the pin footings and perimeter
beam under the existing grade and this is all normal stuff or what you
refer to as WC. Quite frankly, I don't even know what qualifies as
abnormal as far as framing construction goes. BTW: Much of this stuff
was on islands without roads leading to them so the framers had to be
especially cunning because the big box was not right around the corner
to bail them out. The barge dropped the lumber and the hardware on the
beach and the doods just got r done, whatever it took, and always
exceeded the code inspectors wrath. The stuff in Richards pretty pix
is much more extensive all the way around.
|
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> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@g=
mail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@yaho=
o.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@=
gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at a 19=