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Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Se=F1ior_Popcor on September 7, 2009, 3:06 pm
> creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@g=
mail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@yaho=
o.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@=
gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at a 19=
th century
> > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn't worth =
the effort.
> > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prior to tha=
t the animals
> > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was salvage=
able but the
> > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walked.
> > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemble an 18=
th century
> > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double dovetai=
l) and
> > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it. What a =
job.
> > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kindergarten.
> > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x12" colu=
mn and it
> > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the first on=
e all the way
> > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the building, t=
he drift
> > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was solid maple=
.
> > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, where, l=
ike you said,
> > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, and a con=
stant
> > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention the cost.
> > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightly more t=
han sticks.
> > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sticks, unl=
ess for
> > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale renders the=
ir stick-
> > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they might d=
o well to
> > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 'timberfra=
mes') are
> > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in the sho=
rt too, if
> > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people don't seem=
to
> > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're still not=
that much
> > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it for what =
you get,
> > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their frames, bent=
s and/or
> > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed offsite; =
if a
> > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (and even =
in total);
> > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the site.
> > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn't much =
more
> > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themselves, th=
e labor
> > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of the hea=
vy timers
> > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is purely =
cosmetic!
> > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed to cosme=
tic,
> > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expensive in =
total
> > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, but I'm =
still
> > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timbers for ho=
me
> > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are reusabl=
e
> > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (larger diamet=
er
> > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create better s=
paces;
> > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred by many =
people
> > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint (and th=
erefore
> > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resale/rental
> > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residential constr=
uction
> > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such other fill=
er
> > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Build', by =
Duo
> > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away from the=
posts
> > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can swing
> > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), so that =
there's
> > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they made th=
e walls
> > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, from sheds=
and
> > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PABs.
> > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that can affo=
rd them
> > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very nice PAB.
> > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of the popul=
ation
> > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except roof
> > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams and
> > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on the
> > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in that regar=
d.
> > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then there is
> > > > the internet.
> > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construction I
> > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can provide the
> > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble the parts
> > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of the costs
> > > > involved.
> > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I built ca=
n
> > > > be called that.
> > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > Ken
> > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam like
> > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Post &
> > Beam construction.
> > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but its a
> > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the costs
> > are already known.
> > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of what I
> > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the numbers
> > and my labor was free.
> > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside help is
> > required.
> > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about has
> > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-longs and
> > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> Western construction we all know and love.
> Ken
It's another nice little build, Ken, and I think they conform well to
human scale. Just because the wood is scaled down, too, doesn't mean
it's not a PAB.
There are a lot of gorgeous PAB cabins out there that I often find far
more attractive than many stick-framed houses of any size.
Don, as I've already insinuated, if not mentioned, they appear to be
far less than what you're suggesting (which would stand to reason,
unless perhaps you factor in greed or lack of knowledge and
experience) and there appear to be far more perks with PABs that you
don't get with sticks. (Prefab used to be, or was/is supposed to be,
cheap was/is it?)
Frankly, I'm unsure I like sticks all that much, now that I think
about it, and would probably want a serious discount to have one
designed/built for me. So there's an added cost for sticks right
there.
If you design for McMansion stick-builts, then I suppose I can
understand where you're coming from.
A quote from:
http://timberframeconsultants.net/pb_vs_tf.htm
"A simple way to compare timber frame to stick built is to point out
that conventionally framed homes can be pretty dull unless they get
tricked out substantially with crown moldings, paneling, tray ceilings
and so on... These kinds of treatments can cause construction costs to
equal or exceed the cost of timber frame construction.
...even a 5/12 pitched ceiling done in timber framing with wood
decking is visually exciting and gives the room a very spacious
feeling. Compare that to... see that even with a steeper pitch, a
cathedral, sheetrocked ceiling is somewhat cold and austere."
As always, your incentives to do my homework/research are, oddly
enough, appreciated.
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Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Se=F1ior_Popcor on September 10, 2009, 1:05 pm
> Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> ...http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > Ken
> > It's another nice little build, Ken, and I think they conform well to
> > human scale. Just because the wood is scaled down, too, doesn't mean
> > it's not a PAB.
> > There are a lot of gorgeous PAB cabins out there that I often find far
> > more attractive than many stick-framed houses of any size.
> > Don, as I've already insinuated, if not mentioned, they appear to be
> > far less than what you're suggesting (which would stand to reason,
> > unless perhaps you factor in greed or lack of knowledge and
> > experience) and there appear to be far more perks with PABs that you
> > don't get with sticks. (Prefab used to be, or was/is supposed to be,
> > cheap was/is it?)
> > Frankly, I'm unsure I like sticks all that much, now that I think
> > about it, and would probably want a serious discount to have one
> > designed/built for me. So there's an added cost for sticks right
> > there.
> > If you design for McMansion stick-builts, then I suppose I can
> > understand where you're coming from.
> > A quote from:
> >http://timberframeconsultants.net/pb_vs_tf.htm
> > "A simple way to compare timber frame to stick built is to point out
> > that conventionally framed homes can be pretty dull unless they get
> > tricked out substantially with crown moldings, paneling, tray ceilings
> > and so on... These kinds of treatments can cause construction costs to
> > equal or exceed the cost of timber frame construction.
> > ...even a 5/12 pitched ceiling done in timber framing with wood
> > decking is visually exciting and gives the room a very spacious
> > feeling. Compare that to... see that even with a steeper pitch, a
> > cathedral, sheetrocked ceiling is somewhat cold and austere."
> > As always, your incentives to do my homework/research are, oddly
> > enough, appreciated.
> Personally I respect "stick-built", it provides practical
> high quality 'western construction' homes economically,
> and is versatile.
I'm reading more about them and they're looking less attractive,
versatile, recyclable, and more expensive (such as in the long-run)
the more I read. Apparently, they were designed to lessen the skill-
set requirements of the average tradesperson.
Do we include "intangibilities" such as desirability or level-of-
happiness, in the cost-benefit analyses of stick-builts, or anything
else for that matter?
There's the nice Rideau River near here that I'd like to swim in, but
it may be too polluted. Do we want/need the cars and/or industries
responsible for the polluting, or do we want/need a clean river right
in our backyard (that we don't need a car to get to) that we can swim
in and eat fish/ducks from?
> Mr. Popcorn, do you have a lot yet?
> Will you DIYer or subcontract your new house building?
Not yet. I am looking at about 4 years to set everything up (probably
more than just a house).
|
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Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 11, 2009, 9:46 am
> > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > ...http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > > Ken
> > > It's another nice little build, Ken, and I think they conform well to
> > > human scale. Just because the wood is scaled down, too, doesn't mean
> > > it's not a PAB.
> > > There are a lot of gorgeous PAB cabins out there that I often find fa=
r
> > > more attractive than many stick-framed houses of any size.
> > > Don, as I've already insinuated, if not mentioned, they appear to be
> > > far less than what you're suggesting (which would stand to reason,
> > > unless perhaps you factor in greed or lack of knowledge and
> > > experience) and there appear to be far more perks with PABs that you
> > > don't get with sticks. (Prefab used to be, or was/is supposed to be,
> > > cheap was/is it?)
> > > Frankly, I'm unsure I like sticks all that much, now that I think
> > > about it, and would probably want a serious discount to have one
> > > designed/built for me. So there's an added cost for sticks right
> > > there.
> > > If you design for McMansion stick-builts, then I suppose I can
> > > understand where you're coming from.
> > > A quote from:
> > >http://timberframeconsultants.net/pb_vs_tf.htm
> > > "A simple way to compare timber frame to stick built is to point out
> > > that conventionally framed homes can be pretty dull unless they get
> > > tricked out substantially with crown moldings, paneling, tray ceiling=
s
> > > and so on... These kinds of treatments can cause construction costs t=
o
> > > equal or exceed the cost of timber frame construction.
> > > ...even a 5/12 pitched ceiling done in timber framing with wood
> > > decking is visually exciting and gives the room a very spacious
> > > feeling. Compare that to... see that even with a steeper pitch, a
> > > cathedral, sheetrocked ceiling is somewhat cold and austere."
> > > As always, your incentives to do my homework/research are, oddly
> > > enough, appreciated.
> > Personally I respect "stick-built", it provides practical
> > high quality 'western construction' homes economically,
> > and is versatile.
> I'm reading more about them and they're looking less attractive,
> versatile, recyclable, and more expensive (such as in the long-run)
> the more I read. Apparently, they were designed to lessen the skill-
> set requirements of the average tradesperson.
> Do we include "intangibilities" such as desirability or level-of-
> happiness, in the cost-benefit analyses of stick-builts, or anything
> else for that matter?
> There's the nice Rideau River near here that I'd like to swim in, but
> it may be too polluted. Do we want/need the cars and/or industries
> responsible for the polluting, or do we want/need a clean river right
> in our backyard (that we don't need a car to get to) that we can swim
> in and eat fish/ducks from?
> > Mr. Popcorn, do you have a lot yet?
> > Will you DIYer or subcontract your new house building?
> Not yet. I am looking at about 4 years to set everything up (probably
> more than just a house).
Tip:
Now is a good time to buy land as it is just about bottomed out
pricewise.
It may go even cheaper but thats a gamble.
When we built in 2002 we already owned the land, which we paid $3500
for and at the time we applied for the construction loan the lot
appraised at $24,000.
What that means is the equity in our lot was assumed as the major part
of our down payment, but we still had to come up with another $10k at
closing.
None of that has anything to do with the $40k out of pocket I spent
during construction, especially in the last month or so before we got
the CO.
Everything costs more than it costs and takes longer than it takes.
Keep in mind that you pay the increasing interest on the construction
loan while the house is being built.
Its a monthly payment and increases with the amount of money the bank
doles out. They don't give you the full loan amount up front but
rather issue *draws* while the thing is going on. In July 2002, the
last full month of construction on the new house we had to pay more
than $2500 for the monthly payment on the house we were living in and
the new one. Thats tough and we continued to pay that amount til we
sold the old house in Nov 2002.
|
|
Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 11, 2009, 9:36 am
> creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@g=
mail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@yaho=
o.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1...@=
gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at a 19=
th century
> > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn't worth =
the effort.
> > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prior to tha=
t the animals
> > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was salvage=
able but the
> > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walked.
> > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemble an 18=
th century
> > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double dovetai=
l) and
> > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it. What a =
job.
> > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kindergarten.
> > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x12" colu=
mn and it
> > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the first on=
e all the way
> > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the building, t=
he drift
> > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was solid maple=
.
> > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, where, l=
ike you said,
> > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, and a con=
stant
> > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention the cost.
> > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightly more t=
han sticks.
> > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sticks, unl=
ess for
> > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale renders the=
ir stick-
> > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they might d=
o well to
> > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 'timberfra=
mes') are
> > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in the sho=
rt too, if
> > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people don't seem=
to
> > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're still not=
that much
> > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it for what =
you get,
> > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their frames, bent=
s and/or
> > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed offsite; =
if a
> > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (and even =
in total);
> > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the site.
> > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn't much =
more
> > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themselves, th=
e labor
> > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of the hea=
vy timers
> > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is purely =
cosmetic!
> > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed to cosme=
tic,
> > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expensive in =
total
> > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, but I'm =
still
> > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timbers for ho=
me
> > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are reusabl=
e
> > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (larger diamet=
er
> > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create better s=
paces;
> > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred by many =
people
> > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint (and th=
erefore
> > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resale/rental
> > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residential constr=
uction
> > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such other fill=
er
> > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Build', by =
Duo
> > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away from the=
posts
> > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can swing
> > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), so that =
there's
> > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they made th=
e walls
> > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, from sheds=
and
> > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PABs.
> > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that can affo=
rd them
> > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very nice PAB.
> > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of the popul=
ation
> > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except roof
> > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams and
> > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on the
> > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in that regar=
d.
> > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then there is
> > > > the internet.
> > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construction I
> > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can provide the
> > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble the parts
> > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of the costs
> > > > involved.
> > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I built ca=
n
> > > > be called that.
> > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > Ken
> > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam like
> > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Post &
> > Beam construction.
> > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but its a
> > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the costs
> > are already known.
> > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of what I
> > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the numbers
> > and my labor was free.
> > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside help is
> > required.
> > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about has
> > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-longs and
> > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> Western construction we all know and love.
> Ken
Yes, it was standard stick built construction and there's no shame in
that.
Its affordable, very strong and if done properly meets all codes.
|
|
Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 12, 2009, 8:45 pm
> creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
ote:
> > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1.=
..@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome...@=
yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creative1=
...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last long.
> > > > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look at =
a 19th century
> > > > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn't wo=
rth the effort.
> > > > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prior to=
that the animals
> > > > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was sal=
vageable but the
> > > > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walked.
> > > > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemble a=
n 18th century
> > > > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double dov=
etail) and
> > > > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it. Wha=
t a job.
> > > > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kindergart=
en.
> > > > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x12" =
column and it
> > > > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the firs=
t one all the way
> > > > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the buildin=
g, the drift
> > > > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was solid m=
aple.
> > > > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, wher=
e, like you said,
> > > > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, and a=
constant
> > > > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention the c=
ost.
> > > > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightly mo=
re than sticks.
> > > > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sticks,=
unless for
> > > > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale renders=
their stick-
> > > > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they mig=
ht do well to
> > > > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 'timbe=
rframes') are
> > > > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in the=
short too, if
> > > > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people don't =
seem to
> > > > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're still=
not that much
> > > > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it for w=
hat you get,
> > > > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their frames, =
bents and/or
> > > > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed offsi=
te; if a
> > > > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (and e=
ven in total);
> > > > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the site.
> > > > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn't m=
uch more
> > > > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themselves=
, the labor
> > > > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of the=
heavy timers
> > > > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is pur=
ely cosmetic!
> > > > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed to c=
osmetic,
> > > > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expensive=
in total
> > > > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, but =
I'm still
> > > > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timbers fo=
r home
> > > > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are reu=
sable
> > > > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (larger di=
ameter
> > > > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create bett=
er spaces;
> > > > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred by m=
any people
> > > > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint (an=
d therefore
> > > > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resale/re=
ntal
> > > > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residential co=
nstruction
> > > > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such other =
filler
> > > > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Build',=
by Duo
> > > > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away from=
the posts
> > > > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can swi=
ng
> > > > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), so t=
hat there's
> > > > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they mad=
e the walls
> > > > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, from s=
heds and
> > > > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PABs.
> > > > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that can =
afford them
> > > > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very nice P=
AB.
> > > > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of the p=
opulation
> > > > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except roof
> > > > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams and
> > > > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on the
> > > > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in that r=
egard.
> > > > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then ther=
e is
> > > > > > the internet.
> > > > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construction=
I
> > > > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can provide =
the
> > > > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble the p=
arts
> > > > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of the c=
osts
> > > > > > involved.
> > > > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I buil=
t can
> > > > > > be called that.
> > > > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam lik=
e
> > > > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Post &
> > > > Beam construction.
> > > > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but its a
> > > > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > > > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the costs
> > > > are already known.
> > > > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of what I
> > > > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the numbers
> > > > and my labor was free.
> > > > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside help=
is
> > > > required.
> > > > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about has
> > > > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-longs an=
d
> > > > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > Ken
> > Yes, it was standard stick built construction and there's no shame in
> > that.
> > Its affordable, very strong and if done properly meets all codes.
> This is a bit semantical, I presume the term "standard stick"
> implies 'Western Construction' , well the P&B we did needed
> different engineering than simple WC.
> Heres some of the story: I spec'd a 12x24 shop on swampy ground,
> that would have a tendency to heave cuz of frost, so the posts were
> built on threaded rods so the nuts could be used for seasonal
> leveling.
> =A0The design's were done and construction began, but then wifey
> ordered a 16x24 addition to the front, (that's the part you see in the
> last photo with the doors open). So I agreed to build that addition
> using
> the P&B method, still on swampy ground, it's not WC, cuz of the
> foundation requirements.
> For example, the P&B design enabled two 8x8 doors to be opened to
> air the shop, south exposed, and another east door for cross vent,
> which was nice when painting or building saw dust.
> P&B has a differerent engineering than WC. WC has dedicated headers
> but the P&B (I did) has full headers on the perimeter and interior
> walls,
> so one can remove a wall, mod it, and/or replace it, something that
> can't
> easily be done using standard WC.
> Ken
Lots of sites have *conditions* that are less than ideal and the
experienced framer will deal with it accordingly using the design
basics and any required engineering. I've seen threaded rods 30' long
from the top plate of the 3rd floor to the pin footings and perimeter
beam under the existing grade and this is all normal stuff or what you
refer to as WC. Quite frankly, I don't even know what qualifies as
abnormal as far as framing construction goes. BTW: Much of this stuff
was on islands without roads leading to them so the framers had to be
especially cunning because the big box was not right around the corner
to bail them out. The barge dropped the lumber and the hardware on the
beach and the doods just got r done, whatever it took, and always
exceeded the code inspectors wrath. The stuff in Richards pretty pix
is much more extensive all the way around.
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