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Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on September 15, 2009, 1:18 pm
> wrote:
> > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
ote:
> > > > > > > creative1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sep 3, 1:08=A0am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca=
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 10:14=A0pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creati=
ve1...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 31, 1:02=A0am, Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut <glome=
...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2:36 pm, "creative1...@gmail.com" <creat=
ive1...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Se=F1ior Popcorn-Coconut> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh ya, and you can also take many PAB frames
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > apart and rebuild/re-use them, and they last lo=
ng.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Depends.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I went down to Bedford a couple weeks ago to look=
at a 19th century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > barn someone was giving away and decided it wasn'=
t worth the effort.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The elements had gotten to the structure and prio=
r to that the animals
> > > > > > > > > > > > > had given it a thorough thrashing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a century of cows chewing on stuff.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of the upper structure, the hay mow <sp> was=
salvageable but the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > guy said take all of it or none of it, so I walke=
d.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 15 years ago I helped a guy in Kentucky disassemb=
le an 18th century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > real log cabin (18" wide logs, square cut, double=
dovetail) and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > transport it to West Virginia and reconstruct it.=
What a job.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Analyzing old wood is a science and I'm in kinder=
garten.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I pounded a steel drift into the center of a 12"x=
12" column and it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > went all the way in with little effort.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not good.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, I had to use another drift to pound the =
first one all the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > through and out the other side to get it out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On another one, more toward the center of the bui=
lding, the drift
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bounced off the surface of the column, it was sol=
id maple.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I like the look of the stuff, the post and beam, =
where, like you said,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the craftsmanship becomes the art of the thing, a=
nd a constant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > reminder of the effort involved, not to mention t=
he cost.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The harder the wood, the easier to work.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Logs interest me less than PAB's, but maybe slightl=
y more than sticks.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have a problem with the idea of many kinds of sti=
cks, unless for
> > > > > > > > > > > > smaller-scale homes, in which case, their scale ren=
ders their stick-
> > > > > > > > > > > > structure more like PAB anyway, and that's how they=
might do well to
> > > > > > > > > > > > be approached.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Post-and-beams (what I prefer to call them, over 't=
imberframes') are
> > > > > > > > > > > > probably cheaper in the long run, and maybe even in=
the short too, if
> > > > > > > > > > > > you factor in many other things that some people do=
n't seem to
> > > > > > > > > > > > consider.
> > > > > > > > > > > > (And there is value to be had beyond mere money).
> > > > > > > > > > > > All things out of consideration, however, they're s=
till not that much
> > > > > > > > > > > > more expensive than sticks, and so still worth it f=
or what you get,
> > > > > > > > > > > > which is far more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is whether PAB's (at least their fram=
es, bents and/or
> > > > > > > > > > > > sections) are (more) conducive to being prefabbed o=
ffsite; if a
> > > > > > > > > > > > shorter time is needed to build them once onsite (a=
nd even in total);
> > > > > > > > > > > > and if there is less environmental impact to the si=
te.
> > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear.
> > > > > > > > > > > No slam, but where did you get the idea that PAB wasn=
't much more
> > > > > > > > > > > expensive than sticks, assuming you mean 2x studs?
> > > > > > > > > > > Large chunks of lumber are HUGELY expensive in themse=
lves, the labor
> > > > > > > > > > > for the joinery is very expensive and the erection of=
the heavy timers
> > > > > > > > > > > is very expensive as well. And get this, all of it is=
purely cosmetic!
> > > > > > > > > > I'm talking about structural post and beam, as opposed =
to cosmetic,
> > > > > > > > > > and have seen a few quotes online of 10%-15% more expen=
sive in total
> > > > > > > > > > for the finished house, if I read correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > The actual PAB frame alone is a little more expensive, =
but I'm still
> > > > > > > > > > getting 30%-35%.
> > > > > > > > > > > There is no structural reason to warrant large timber=
s for home
> > > > > > > > > > > construction.
> > > > > > > > > > To me there is and there are other reasons too.
> > > > > > > > > > From what I'm learning, they last a very long time; are=
reusable
> > > > > > > > > > (recyclable); may be able to handle fires better (large=
r diameter
> > > > > > > > > > timbers); are cost-effective over the long run; create =
better spaces;
> > > > > > > > > > are good for earthquakes and hurricanes; are preferred =
by many people
> > > > > > > > > > from an aesthetic/spiritual/historic/natural standpoint=
(and therefore
> > > > > > > > > > may have better intrinsic, social, lasting and/or resal=
e/rental
> > > > > > > > > > value); and maybe more reasons too.
> > > > > > > > > > > Here's a pretty accurate rule of thumb for residentia=
l construction
> > > > > > > > > > > using conventional method.
> > > > > > > > > > > Materials =3D $X
> > > > > > > > > > > Labor =3D 2x $X
> > > > > > > > > > > For PAB I'd guess the cost is:
> > > > > > > > > > My clients want more than guesswork.
> > > > > > > > > > > Material =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > > > > > Labor =3D 4x $X
> > > > > > > > > > > And I'm probably too conservative.
> > > > > > > > > > > Further, you still have to use sticks or some such ot=
her filler
> > > > > > > > > > > material between the PAB's.
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen a PAB design in the book 'The House You Bui=
ld', by Duo
> > > > > > > > > > Dickinson, that apparently has the external walls away =
from the posts
> > > > > > > > > > and beams (which is what I like-- the idea that you can=
swing
> > > > > > > > > > completely around an "external" post from the inside), =
so that there's
> > > > > > > > > > no, or less, infill required. I don't yet know how they=
made the walls
> > > > > > > > > > though. Perhaps SIP's or 2x4's and some windows.
> > > > > > > > > > > There's a reason why you never see small PAB homes.
> > > > > > > > > > I already have online. I've seen all kinds of sizes, fr=
om sheds and
> > > > > > > > > > cabins on up to timber-processing factories made of PAB=
s.
> > > > > > > > > > > Almost all of them are large because the people that =
can afford them
> > > > > > > > > > > won't live in a small house.
> > > > > > > > > > Ironically, a smaller house is one way to get a very ni=
ce PAB.
> > > > > > > > > > > PAB is fun to play and dream with but for 99.99% of t=
he population
> > > > > > > > > > > that is all it is, a dream.
> > > > > > > > > > You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> > > > > > > > > I agree with Mr. Popcorn.
> > > > > > > > > I designed a shed/shop and we built it, here's pix,
> > > > > > > > >http://www.trak4.com/shed/index.html
> > > > > > > > > An advantage of that system is many components (except ro=
of
> > > > > > > > > and piers) can be prefabed, such as floor, posts, beams a=
nd
> > > > > > > > > walls can be done on a table.
> > > > > > > > > Don't know if it's easy to scale to a classy house.
> > > > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > > > First off, both you guys need to get your heads straight on=
the
> > > > > > > > definition of terms, both of you are all over the map in th=
at regard.
> > > > > > > > Second, as far as cost is concerned, there is reality then =
there is
> > > > > > > > the internet.
> > > > > > > > Reality always has its way.
> > > > > > > > If anyone is *seriously* considering post and beam construc=
tion I
> > > > > > > > suggest they talk directly to someone locally that can prov=
ide the
> > > > > > > > materials and the craftsmanship to fabricate and assemble t=
he parts
> > > > > > > > involved and have that person give you a primer on ALL of t=
he costs
> > > > > > > > involved.
> > > > > > > > Otherwise, keep dreaming.
> > > > > > > > Hell, using ya'lls definition of post and beam, the deck I =
built can
> > > > > > > > be called that.
> > > > > > > > I mean, it has posts and it has beams........
> > > > > > > > Welcome to Euphemasia, where nobody means what they mean.
> > > > > > > Knock knock, anybody home?
> > > > > > > I supplied a typical P&B construction with some pix above.
> > > > > > > The posts are 4x4+, the beams 4x16 (hollow), and provide all
> > > > > > > the headers respecting the roof joists/trusses.
> > > > > > > I pretty much had the Bill of Materials nailed within 10%.
> > > > > > > Into each segment was installed customized walls, built on
> > > > > > > 4x8 benches, neat accurate and easy.
> > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > In Richards words, those things are *sticks*, not post and beam=
like
> > > > > > he showed in his drawing and what is normally referred to as Po=
st &
> > > > > > Beam construction.
> > > > > > Hell, all stick built homes have the stuff you mentioned, but i=
ts a
> > > > > > rare home that has Post & Beam construction.
> > > > > > As far as your cost estimate goes, thats pretty easy when the c=
osts
> > > > > > are already known.
> > > > > > Everything I've built so far has been within a few cents of wha=
t I
> > > > > > figured because I called the suppliers up first and got the num=
bers
> > > > > > and my labor was free.
> > > > > > Labor is the difficult part to figure the cost of when outside =
help is
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > > Post and Beam construction, like Richard has been talking about=
has
> > > > > > huge labor costs not to mention things like cranes, come-a-long=
s and
> > > > > > outright muscle to get the things in place properly.
> > > > > I (we) faced the 4x4's with 2x4's , thereby avoiding large posts,
> > > > > IIRC the 2x4's were load bearing in some cases, such as the
> > > > > floor beams, and gave some heft to the roof support, that was
> > > > > rated for deep snow, 1 foot of ice, 11" water, it was built to
> > > > > withstand Muskoka's harshest winters, ~ 10' accumulated snow.
> > > > > The result looked like P&B, functioned like P&B and quacked
> > > > > like P&B, so maybe it's pseudo (fake) P&B, it wasn't standard
> > > > > Western construction we all know and love.
> > > > > Ken
> > > > Yes, it was standard stick built construction and there's no shame =
in
> > > > that.
> > > > Its affordable, very strong and if done properly meets all codes.
> > > This is a bit semantical, I presume the term "standard stick"
> > > implies 'Western Construction' , well the P&B we did needed
> > > different engineering than simple WC.
> > > Heres some of the story: I spec'd a 12x24 shop on swampy ground,
> > > that would have a tendency to heave cuz of frost, so the posts were
> > > built on threaded rods so the nuts could be used for seasonal
> > > leveling.
> > > =A0The design's were done and construction began, but then wifey
> > > ordered a 16x24 addition to the front, (that's the part you see in th=
e
> > > last photo with the doors open). So I agreed to build that addition
> > > using
> > > the P&B method, still on swampy ground, it's not WC, cuz of the
> > > foundation requirements.
> > > For example, the P&B design enabled two 8x8 doors to be opened to
> > > air the shop, south exposed, and another east door for cross vent,
> > > which was nice when painting or building saw dust.
> > > P&B has a differerent engineering than WC. WC has dedicated headers
> > > but the P&B (I did) has full headers on the perimeter and interior
> > > walls,
> > > so one can remove a wall, mod it, and/or replace it, something that
> > > can't
> > > easily be done using standard WC.
> > > Ken
> > Lots of sites have *conditions* that are less than ideal and the
> > experienced framer will deal with it accordingly using the design
> > basics and any required engineering. I've seen threaded rods 30' long
> > from the top plate of the 3rd floor to the pin footings and perimeter
> > beam under the existing grade and this is all normal stuff or what you
> > refer to as WC. Quite frankly, I don't even know what qualifies as
> > abnormal as far as framing construction goes. BTW: Much of this stuff
> > was on islands without roads leading to them so the framers had to be
> > especially cunning because the big box was not right around the corner
> > to bail them out. The barge dropped the lumber and the hardware on the
> > beach and the doods just got r done, whatever it took, and always
> > exceeded the code inspectors wrath. The stuff in Richards pretty pix
> > is much more extensive all the way around.
> I'm getting some blurring on the definitions of things, both online
> and in the books I have at home.
> For example, in one of my books, their concept of P&B has no apparent
> wood joinery (they call stuff with that, 'timber frame'); while I've
> read timber-frame as used to describe stick-builts using wood studs,
> whose joinery seems to be nails and/or metal brackets. As far as I
> understand; studs are "posts" that generally rely on nail-joinery and
> wall-sheets for lateral stiffness/support; while posts in P&B
> structures rely on brackets and wood mortise-and-tenon or metal brace/
> bracket/bolt joinery.
> Inspired by one of Rico's comments a month or 2 ago, I figured that if
> Don, was an artificial intelligence floating around the net, an
> emergent being from an autonomous, self-learning/replicating "virus
> bot" released at the dawn of the internet, I might be able to somehow
> initiate a summons for his specific consciousness, and see if I could
> pull in some clearer results.
> Seems AI still has a long way to go... Although he could still be one
> and maybe the scientists of long ago and no one else for that matter
> just haven't realized it yet. Except maybe Rico.
> (That might explain some of my spam)
> So until further clarification, I will try to refer to any "wood-
> joinery post-and-beam skeletal framework" construction, no matter the
> size of the timbers, as 'Timberframe Post-&-Beam' (TP&B).
I believe you and I, inspite of what others have to say, understood
what post & beam construction is.
You, by way of your posted drawings.
I, by way of my explanations of the terminology and reference to my
experience.
If you search the web long enough you'll find just about any and every
thing, until you're right back where you started.
I mentioned this about 2 years ago as something I learned while
editing a book on this topic.
The massive amounts of information on the web and the inability of
many people to determine whats right and wrong.
If you and I decide brown is blue and 7 is 44 we can still have a
conversation with that common understanding.
But if either of us does not agree implicitly then the conversation is
ruined.
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