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Re: OT: Thinking about design KMK 08-18-2008
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Posted by KMK on August 18, 2008, 5:28 pm


86b4-2033a41de7d7@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com:

[snipped]
> Architecture has evolved fairly
> well to keep things serviceable. In this place we
> designed we kept "serviceability access" in priority
> above appearance. We had a serious challenge as
> we have no basement, not even crawl space, so
> removeable panels were used.
> Ken
>

SOmething I've been wondering for a while is a realted to under-floor heating
systems - usually, the tubes (that carry the hot waer) are embedded in
concrete when a foundation slab is poured, but, to make it more acessible if
repairs are needed, isn't there a way to use some larger hosing to either
(1) create a channel into which the actual hoses/piping could be laid, and
then have somewhat-raised flooring put on top,
or
(2) snake the hot-water hoses through the larger hoses/piping?


Just wondering.


Electric Radiant Heat 468x60
Posted by KMK on August 19, 2008, 11:38 am



>> news:7a8b4080-32bc-4df3-
>> 86b4-2033a41de...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> [snipped]
>>
>> > Architecture has evolved fairly
>> > well to keep things serviceable. In this place we
>> > designed we kept "serviceability access" in priority
>> > above appearance. We had a serious challenge as
>> > we have no basement, not even crawl space, so
>> > removeable panels were used.
>> > Ken
>>
>> SOmething I've been wondering for a while is a realted to under-floor
>> heating systems - usually, the tubes (that carry the hot waer) are
>> embedded in concrete when a foundation slab is poured, but, to make it
>> more acessible if repairs are needed, isn't there a way to use some
>> larger hosing to either (1) create a channel into which the actual
>> hoses/piping could be laid, and then have somewhat-raised flooring put
>> on top, or
>> (2) snake the hot-water hoses through the larger hoses/piping?
>>
>> Just wondering.
>
> If you're worried about that, you can install them between floor
> joists -- that's how you heat the 2nd floor. That would give you
> accessibility, so long as you are willing to tear up your floor. Or,
> put in a basement so you can get at it from the bottom.
>

I never thought of in-floor heating on a second floor that isn't concrete (as
in a non-low-rise apartment building), to be honest - I've only ever seen it
embedded in concrete, so, if a repair has to be done, it's not just that the
floor has to be torn up, a concrete salb floor has to be torn up.

But I thought that, if a channel could be made in the concrete and the hot-
water hosing just laid in, and then if the floor on top could be on raised
panels (to insure there was no contact between the flooring and the hot
hosing/piping), then, if the system needed repair, there'd be no tearing at
all so to speak, you just lift up the floor panels.

Would that not work...?

- Kris

Posted by RicodJour on August 19, 2008, 1:34 pm


133c188df830@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> >> news:7a8b4080-32bc-4df3-
> >> 86b4-2033a41de...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> [snipped]
>
> >> > Architecture has evolved fairly
> >> > well to keep things serviceable. In this place we
> >> > designed we kept "serviceability access" in priority
> >> > above appearance. We had a serious challenge as
> >> > we have no basement, not even crawl space, so
> >> > removeable panels were used.
> >> > Ken
>
> >> SOmething I've been wondering for a while is a realted to under-floor
> >> heating systems - usually, the tubes (that carry the hot waer) are
> >> embedded in concrete when a foundation slab is poured, but, to make it
> >> more acessible if repairs are needed, isn't there a way to use some
> >> larger hosing to either (1) create a channel into which the actual
> >> hoses/piping could be laid, and then have somewhat-raised flooring put
> >> on top, or
> >> (2) snake the hot-water hoses through the larger hoses/piping?
>
> >> Just wondering.
>
> > If you're worried about that, you can install them between floor
> > joists -- that's how you heat the 2nd floor. =A0That would give you
> > accessibility, so long as you are willing to tear up your floor. =A0Or,
> > put in a basement so you can get at it from the bottom.
>
> I never thought of in-floor heating on a second floor that isn't concrete=
(as
> in a non-low-rise apartment building), to be honest - I've only ever seen=
it
> embedded in concrete, so, if a repair has to be done, it's not just that =
the
> floor has to be torn up, a concrete salb floor has to be torn up.
>
> But I thought that, if a channel could be made in the concrete and the ho=
t-
> water hosing just laid in, and then if the floor on top could be on raise=
d
> panels (to insure there was no contact between the flooring and the hot
> hosing/piping), then, if the system needed repair, there'd be no tearing =
at
> all so to speak, you just lift up the floor panels.
>
> Would that not work...?

Contact between the hot pipe and the concrete is how the heating
energy is transferred. Your system would cost more to operate as the
heat transfer would be less efficient.

Cutting open a slab and repairing some PEX would cost a grand or less,
and with thermal imaging locating the leak is not that difficult.
Your redundant piping idea would have some benefits, some
disadvantages and would cost more than a repair that might never need
to be done.

You are suggesting designing a system because you expect it to fail.

R

Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on August 23, 2008, 4:17 pm


>
>
>
1-133c188df830@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > >> news:7a8b4080-32bc-4df3-
> > >> 86b4-2033a41de...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
> > >> [snipped]
>
> > >> > Architecture has evolved fairly
> > >> > well to keep things serviceable. In this place we
> > >> > designed we kept "serviceability access" in priority
> > >> > above appearance. We had a serious challenge as
> > >> > we have no basement, not even crawl space, so
> > >> > removeable panels were used.
> > >> > Ken
>
> > >> SOmething I've been wondering for a while is a realted to under-floo=
r
> > >> heating systems - usually, the tubes (that carry the hot waer) are
> > >> embedded in concrete when a foundation slab is poured, but, to make =
it
> > >> more acessible if repairs are needed, isn't there a way to use some
> > >> larger hosing to either (1) create a channel into which the actual
> > >> hoses/piping could be laid, and then have somewhat-raised flooring p=
ut
> > >> on top, or
> > >> (2) snake the hot-water hoses through the larger hoses/piping?
>
> > >> Just wondering.
>
> > > If you're worried about that, you can install them between floor
> > > joists -- that's how you heat the 2nd floor. =A0That would give you
> > > accessibility, so long as you are willing to tear up your floor. =A0O=
r,
> > > put in a basement so you can get at it from the bottom.
>
> > I never thought of in-floor heating on a second floor that isn't concre=
te (as
> > in a non-low-rise apartment building), to be honest - I've only ever se=
en it
> > embedded in concrete, so, if a repair has to be done, it's not just tha=
t the
> > floor has to be torn up, a concrete salb floor has to be torn up.
>
> > But I thought that, if a channel could be made in the concrete and the =
hot-
> > water hosing just laid in, and then if the floor on top could be on rai=
sed
> > panels (to insure there was no contact between the flooring and the hot
> > hosing/piping), then, if the system needed repair, there'd be no tearin=
g at
> > all so to speak, you just lift up the floor panels.
>
> > Would that not work...?
>
> > - Kris
>
> A friend of ours put in air channeling ducts under
> his basement floor right in the concrete, says it
> works great. He's a pro contractor and everything
> must be done to A+ standards.
>
> Myself, I ran a 1" plastic water pipe from the cistern
> inside 4" O-pipe to the house, buried about 18".
> We went away for a couple of weeks in the winter
> and - of course - temperatures plunged to near
> record lows, and there was nil snow for insulation.
> =A0Not a prob for Mr. Tucker, he designed provision
> for a hair dryer to push hot air into the O-pipe and
> proceeds to thaw the pipe per SOP, except for one
> minor detail...the hot air wouldn't flow. Hmm, WTF?
>
> A fitting had a slow leak and filled the O-pipe with
> water which froze! ....duh....forgot to put drain holes
> in the bottom of the O-pipe. Anyway, don't worry,
> were ok now :-).
> Ken

The holes would have frozen too.
The solution was heat tape on a thermocouple and a solar panel with
battery.
Or, just bury the dam thing 4' down and be done with it.
I know, I know, Ditch Witch rental is $75/hr but when you wanna run
with the big dawgs......

Posted by creative1985@gmail.com on August 23, 2008, 4:13 pm


> 86b4-2033a41de...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
> [snipped]
>
> > Architecture has evolved fairly
> > well to keep things serviceable. In this place we
> > designed we kept "serviceability access" in priority
> > above appearance. We had a serious challenge as
> > we have no basement, not even crawl space, so
> > removeable panels were used.
> > Ken
>
> SOmething I've been wondering for a while is a realted to under-floor hea=
ting
> systems - usually, the tubes (that carry the hot waer) are embedded in
> concrete when a foundation slab is poured, but, to make it more acessible=
if
> repairs are needed, isn't there a way to use some larger hosing to either
> (1) create a channel into which the actual hoses/piping could be laid, an=
d
> then have somewhat-raised flooring put on top,
> or
> (2) snake the hot-water hoses through the larger hoses/piping?
>
> Just wondering.

Yes, it would *work* but not the way you want it to.
You are not considering the principle of radiant heat.

The PEX with hot water running though them heats the surrounding
cementitious material and after a spell continues to radiate the heat
into the room.
Radiant heat if different than the other forms of heat you are
probably more familiar with.

When the PEX is embedded inside the concrete it is effectively inside
a conduit, just like regular PVC water piping is.
If the pipe breaks, so what?, its inside another pipe made of
concrete.

When PEX is installed on a 2nd floor that is constructed of wood it is
secured to the wood subfloor with the proper channels and then a layer
of light weight concrete is poured over top, again, embedding the PEX
inside the concrete.

If you want to heat the air in a room a $20 space heater will do that,
but when it cycles off the air quickly cools.
If you want to heat the room and the things in the room that is where
radiant heat shows its stuff.

And then there's electric radiant floor heat but thats a whole nuther
animal.

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