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Re: Old building methods for modern buildings? Kris Krieger 11-17-2007
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Posted by Kris Krieger on November 17, 2007, 4:17 pm

>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have had the chance to travel and have seen that in some countries
>> there are some effective solutions to keeping a building cool, warm
>> or simply making them work in the environment they are in. Contrast
>> this to some modern buildings which seem to ignore completely the
>> environment in which they are present. Some of the design issue I see
>> are:
>> - buildings which have roofs that aren't designed for the amount of
>> rain or snow
>> - inefficient design for cooling
>>
>> In some of the counties I have visited I have seen, as smart of use
>> of 'technology' (does not have to be modern):
>> - tall rooms for keeping spaces cool
>> - large vertical chimneys that rise up beyond the building that are
>> designed to capture the moving wind, to extract the warm air in the
>> buildings
>> - stilts that help keep the building away from the damp and help
>> cooling of the building
>> - roofs that slant to reduce the impact of snow and rain on the
>> building
>>
>> These are just a few, though I would be curious to see what seemingly
>> simple building techniques that you have seen elsewhere that could be
>> used in our new buildings, to help them better fit into its climate.
>>
>> Andre
>
> Just about all the things you mentioned are incidentals, not methods.
> Ex:
> Not everyone can afford high ceilings and a house without a fireplace
> has no use for a chimney no matter how tall it is.

I thought the OP was referring to a thing used in North Africana nd soem
Middle East buildings, where earthen homes had towers which, IIRC (not
sure) might be called "wind catchers" or somehting similar (I'd have to
check). Anyway, the idea was that these were, in fact, tall and sturdy,
and both brought winds into the house (thick earthen walls BTW), and
allowed hot air to rise and escape.

I thnik theword"chimney" is used in the general sense,m as oppsoed to the
specific sense of being incorporated with a fireplace.

At least, that is what I thought the OP meant - I could be worng, of
course.


> ALL homes on barrier islands must be above sea level and if there
> isn't enough dirt than *stilts* will suffice and flat roofs that are
> designed properly work well with snow loads - just take a look at any
> walmart in northern climes-ever seen one collapse? Me neither.
>
> You're hitting and running and I'm not sure where you're
> going............
>
>
>


PexSupply Save 10 468x60
Posted by Troppo on November 17, 2007, 4:48 pm

>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have had the chance to travel and have seen that in some countries
>>> there are some effective solutions to keeping a building cool, warm
>>> or simply making them work in the environment they are in. Contrast
>>> this to some modern buildings which seem to ignore completely the
>>> environment in which they are present. Some of the design issue I
>>> see are:
>>> - buildings which have roofs that aren't designed for the amount of
>>> rain or snow
>>> - inefficient design for cooling
>>>
>>> In some of the counties I have visited I have seen, as smart of use
>>> of 'technology' (does not have to be modern):
>>> - tall rooms for keeping spaces cool
>>> - large vertical chimneys that rise up beyond the building that are
>>> designed to capture the moving wind, to extract the warm air in the
>>> buildings
> [...]
>
> I thought the OP was referring to a thing used in North Africana nd
> soem Middle East buildings, where earthen homes had towers which, IIRC
> (not sure) might be called "wind catchers" or somehting similar (I'd
> have to check). Anyway, the idea was that these were, in fact, tall
> and sturdy, and both brought winds into the house (thick earthen walls
> BTW), and allowed hot air to rise and escape.
>
> I thnik theword"chimney" is used in the general sense,m as oppsoed to
> the specific sense of being incorporated with a fireplace.
>
> At least, that is what I thought the OP meant - I could be worng, of
> course.

No you are right. High level vents.
Hot air rises up the vent by convection = stack effect.
However, if the opening in the vent faces downwind relative to the
"target" wind (the wind that is going to bring relief when conditions are
the most uncomfortable) then the device also works due to difference in
pressure. The downwind side of the vent has a lower pressure than the
upwind side. Equalisation of this difference draws air from the interior
of the building. More effective than anything produced by temperature
difference. I have seen houses where the effect is good enough to cause
paper to float around rooms at head height, or get sucked up the vent.
sou you have to be very tidy, or be well-equipped with paperweights.

Same phenomenon with an aircraft wing - the air path past the wing is
shorter on the underside than the top side = lower pressure at the rear
top side of the wing = lift.

Contemporary tract housing in hot climates usually lacks natural airflow
at ground level. There are too many obstructions so natural airflow, if
present, is "skimming" above the roof - the boundary layer is pushed
upwards. So - if you can poke a vent up above the roof, you might get
some benefit. Problem is, the vent has to be controllable, for when all
else fails and you have to turn on the A/C.


Posted by Andre-John Mas on November 30, 2007, 1:11 pm
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Hi,
>
> >> I have had the chance to travel and have seen that in some countries
> >> there are some effective solutions to keeping a building cool, warm
> >> or simply making them work in the environment they are in. Contrast
> >> this to some modern buildings which seem to ignore completely the
> >> environment in which they are present. Some of the design issue I see
> >> are:
> >> - buildings which have roofs that aren't designed for the amount of
> >> rain or snow
> >> - inefficient design for cooling
>
> >> In some of the counties I have visited I have seen, as smart of use
> >> of 'technology' (does not have to be modern):
> >> - tall rooms for keeping spaces cool
> >> - large vertical chimneys that rise up beyond the building that are
> >> designed to capture the moving wind, to extract the warm air in the
> >> buildings
> >> - stilts that help keep the building away from the damp and help
> >> cooling of the building
> >> - roofs that slant to reduce the impact of snow and rain on the
> >> building
>
> >> These are just a few, though I would be curious to see what seemingly
> >> simple building techniques that you have seen elsewhere that could be
> >> used in our new buildings, to help them better fit into its climate.
>
> >> Andre
>
> > Just about all the things you mentioned are incidentals, not methods.
> > Ex:
> > Not everyone can afford high ceilings and a house without a fireplace
> > has no use for a chimney no matter how tall it is.
>
> I thought the OP was referring to a thing used in North Africana nd soem
> Middle East buildings, where earthen homes had towers which, IIRC (not
> sure) might be called "wind catchers" or somehting similar (I'd have to
> check). Anyway, the idea was that these were, in fact, tall and sturdy,
> and both brought winds into the house (thick earthen walls BTW), and
> allowed hot air to rise and escape.

While the examples were from North Africa and the Middle East, the
point was more about using technology intelligently and not ignoring
something because it is hundreds of years old. Sometimes the solutions
are already being used in other cultures or were being used locally
until a while back. In many ways in trying to build a standard house
or using electronic devices to a job, we fail to realise that there
are already effective technologies available to keep a builing warm, a
building cool or keeping the water away fromt the floor. This is a
general comment, since there are certainly buildings that adhere to
smart design, but there are also so many that don't. Also as stated in
other comments there are new technologies that build on and improve on
what already exist.

For me passive-energy is something I like to think about in buildings
- that is letting natural physics do the work, rather than throwing a
motor in to do the work, if at all possible. With concerns about
energy expenditure I would like to see more energy concious designs
come into play. I haven't been everywhere and I haven't seen
everything so I am hoping to find out other technologies that have
maybe ignored that we could reintroduce. The point about some houses
not having over-hanging roofs to create shade, or keep water away from
the main structure, which was brought up in another comment, is an
example of where we build and miss something out because we didn't
understand their importance.

> I thnik theword"chimney" is used in the general sense,m as oppsoed to the
> specific sense of being incorporated with a fireplace.

I was using it to describe a vertical structure through which heat
escapes.

Andre

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