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Re: The value of shopping local

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Re: The value of shopping local Kris Krieger 11-15-2007
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Posted by Amy Blankenship on November 18, 2007, 11:03 pm

> Kris,
>
> I think you need to see that there are two ways of looking at the issue.
>
> 1) I am required, by the use of force, to "help" others. I have little
> say in who, what or how I'm going to help. Nor do I have any ability to
> ensure that my "contribution" will be used efficiently and/or effectively.
> If I don't "help", my property is taken from me, by force. I have no
> recourse, no appeal and no way to rectify the problem.

Ever hear of voting?

> 2) I give, of my own choice, to those who need help. I can be sure that
> my help is used efficiently and effectively. I know that it will be used
> to help those truly needing the help, and not those who are working the
> system, lazy or simply take it because it's available.
>
> There are those that argue there aren't enough people who will do #2, so
> we must do #1. I am convinced that by doing #1, in *any* degree will
> dissuade many from doing #2. I also know that if #2 was the only option,
> we would be in no worse situation with regard to the number of people
> requiring help and be in a better situation with regard to the economic
> circumstances of everybody in general.

You're looking at it the wrong way. We, as a society, decided that there
are certain things that are worth paying for. To pay for it, we as a
country have chosen to allow ourselves to be taxed.

> The only successful long-term answer is to eliminate all forms of
> government welfare and provide it privately. Those who say it's not
> possible simply want to shift the guilt, and the burden, to somebody else.
> YOU should pay to help him, rather than, I will pay to help him.
> Government social programs are now, and always have been, a way to make
> yourself feel better buy stealing somebody's money to give a little of it
> to somebody else.

Education is not welfare, and students do not get money in the process. You
might as well call the military welfare, or the highway system.

> I have not and will not argue that I don't have a personal moral
> obligation to help those in need. I will argue until I die that nobody
> has the right to take my money without my consent regardless of how noble
> the purpose might be.

You do consent by choosing to live in a country where voters have chosen to
be taxed for purposes that are to everyone's benefit. You can always go and
live in Donselvania.

-Amy



Posted by 3D Peruna on November 19, 2007, 9:28 am
Amy Blankenship wrote:
>> Kris,
>>
>> I think you need to see that there are two ways of looking at the issue.
>>
>> 1) I am required, by the use of force, to "help" others. I have little
>> say in who, what or how I'm going to help. Nor do I have any ability to
>> ensure that my "contribution" will be used efficiently and/or effectively.
>> If I don't "help", my property is taken from me, by force. I have no
>> recourse, no appeal and no way to rectify the problem.
>
> Ever hear of voting?

Voting isn't in the same category. Tyranny of the masses is no
different than the tyranny of a dictator. Just because "everyone"
agrees to steal from the rich guy doesn't mean it's moral. It just
means everyone has lost their morals.

It also means that people have, because of indoctrination, poor
reasoning and emotional manipulation, lost their ability to understand
the proper role and function of governments. Governments have changed
from protecting and defending rights to pandering to the wants of the
masses. Once government has moved to giving away money and power, it
ceases to be a government that will protect rights. It becomes
something different where favors are traded for power and money. If the
government had no welfare system--and it wasn't possible for it have
one--then what would the politicians be about? Today its all about how
much the government can give away. That money comes at a price--votes,
favors, whatever. In order to have any influence, you have to buy your
way in (and it's not always money that is the price).

>
>> 2) I give, of my own choice, to those who need help. I can be sure that
>> my help is used efficiently and effectively. I know that it will be used
>> to help those truly needing the help, and not those who are working the
>> system, lazy or simply take it because it's available.
>>
>> There are those that argue there aren't enough people who will do #2, so
>> we must do #1. I am convinced that by doing #1, in *any* degree will
>> dissuade many from doing #2. I also know that if #2 was the only option,
>> we would be in no worse situation with regard to the number of people
>> requiring help and be in a better situation with regard to the economic
>> circumstances of everybody in general.
>
> You're looking at it the wrong way. We, as a society, decided that there
> are certain things that are worth paying for. To pay for it, we as a
> country have chosen to allow ourselves to be taxed.

I wholeheartedly disagree. In the past, "we" were conned into thinking
taking money and redistributing it is "worth paying for". Yet nothing
has changed. We're not better off, we're worse off. There are the same
number of poor and the amount of money taken is ever increasing.

I don't think we allowed ourselves to be taxes as much as we fooled
ourselves into thinking somebody else would be taxed and that's OK with
me because it won't affect me personally. We allowed ourselves to be
fooled into thinking that 1 or 2% of our income is a reasonable amount,
not realizing that we'd let the horse out of the barn (or a better
analogy, we poked a small hole in the dike to get a drink of water, not
realizing that the force of water would eventually erode away the entire
dike).

>
>> The only successful long-term answer is to eliminate all forms of
>> government welfare and provide it privately. Those who say it's not
>> possible simply want to shift the guilt, a