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Posted by Kris Krieger on November 21, 2007, 1:40 pm
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Pat"> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> There's an aspect of homeschooling known as *unschooling* and this
>>>>> is the process some people go through after leaving the public
>>>>> prisons, er, schools.
>>>>
>>>> Education is not the same thing as the current mess called "the
>>>> public school system". The current ssytem is a bureaucracy first,
>>>> and second, and
>>>> third, and is more of a trianing camp, than an Educational
>>>> Institution.
>>>>
>>>> I've said time and time again that I am willing to pay for children
>>>> to be *educated* - I am *not* w8illing to pay for them to be merely
>>>> warehoused for 8 hours and trained to follow orders.
>>>
>>> I have to say that learning to follow orders is an important skill.
>>> In probably 70% of all jobs, that is at least as important as
>>> reading, math, etc.
>>
>> Foloowing directions is not the same thing as following orders.
>> Directions exist for a reason. Orders fome from an assumption of
>> authority which demands unquestioning obedience.
>
> Sometimes you have to do something you know to be stupid because that
> is the way it is.
Uh, sorry, but that makes no sense, unless you can come up with a
reasonable (emphasis on reasonable) example.
A lot of jobs are dull and boring, especially in retail, where a vast
amount of time is wasted neatening up after dooflollies who tear theorugh
everything and fling stuff around like spolied toddlers flinging toys.
But that's not a matter of "stupid orders", it's a amtter of "a lot of
people are jerks, but in order forthe shop to make sales and, in turn,
keep one's job, customers still have to be able to see the wares and they
also still want to see a neat and attractive display". IOW, that's just
business. Not at all thesame as just following a stupid order because
some little lavatory Napolean likes to assert their pee-drip bit of
"power".
There is no end of people who claim authority, and then use it to
"order" people to do things, which people do, even against their own
better instincts, *merely* because someone in "authority" told them to do
it. Most "authority" is basically bogus, anyway.
> And I don't think it hurts anyone to at least be
> familiar with the concept.
Only when one adds to that the reason behind the concept. In the
military, people have to learn to respond without thought, i.e on
"instinct", because the assumption is that the commander is trying to
achieve an objective while also trying to lose as few troops as possible.
And if one is a member of an orchestra, one has to be jsut that, a partof
a larger entity, and not just go off a start noodling in the middle of a
concert.
By and large, however, I'd say that the vast majority of mere "orders"
(as opposed to directions/instructions describing a process) are stupid,
and unnecessary.
>
>>> For life outside work, one also needs to be able to think
>>> critically. However, the main purpose of the educational system is
>>> to create good workers, so training students to take order is a good
>>> thing.
>>
>> Education should be about much more than training good workers - it
>> should help establish a framework one can use to achieve self-
>> fulfillment, self-actualization. If all you want to do is train
>> workers, don't bother with education, jsut send the kids to work as
>> soon as they can do something, like knot carpets.
>>
>> Oh, but wait, that'd be child labor. Well, if all that matters is
>> "good workers", why is child labor a bad thing?
>
> If a worker can only knot carpets, he/she is not a good worker in the
> current climate. One of the many reasons child labor is a bad thing
> is that it does not provide sufficient time for a child to learn the
> skills to be really successful.
Uh, I was being sarcastic :p
((At teh same time, if someone is intellectually handicapped, they often
excell at repetitive tasks and can sometimes reach a craftsman level. It
all depends upon the individual ;) ))
>
>>> I think the educational system is not perfect by any means,
>>
>> I think it is a disaster for a great many kids.
>
> Some. I wouldn't say even the majority.
>
>>> but I think it's a good idea to have the school system at least
>>> expose children with the ideas of good manners and respect for
>>> authority.
>>
>> A lot of "authority" is false; most people "in authority" are idiots.
>> What one needs to learn, in the current culture, which I never did
>> BTW since I lack sufficient social instincts, is how to *suck up to*
>> authority. Following "authority" blindly is not a good habit -
>> liberty, freedom, and democracy demand far more than that.
>
> Knowing when to keep your head down and not make waves is a very
> valuable skill in an employee. If you do it because you were taught
> just to follow authority blindly or if you do it because you have
> learned that sometimes you just have to suck it up and do stupid
> stuff, the actual behavior is the smae. And the older I get, the more
> times I look back and see times I was _so sure_ I was right where, if
> I'd been able/allowed to do what I thought was right it would have
> been a total disaster.
>
> Do you really think you're happier because you haven't learned when to
> "go with the flow"?
Happy? Not in my younger years - but it had nothing to do with getting
educated; it was due to (1) being *kept from* the education that would
have benefitted me (I had a very high IQ score in high school, and top
10% scores in several aptitudes, top 0.1% in spatial relations - but when
people choose to believe you're a stupid ditz, mere facts, mere test
scores, cannot change their cho | 
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