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Support the Nomads ++ 12-11-2007
---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-12-2007
| |--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-12-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-13-2007
| |--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-13-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-14-2007
| | `--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-14-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-19-2007
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Posted by Troppo on December 12, 2007, 2:58 pm

>
> AdvocacyNet
> News Bulletin 125
> *****
>

[Extensively snipped]

> Dale Farm Travellers Win Key Concession as Eviction Deadline
> Approaches
>

> The Dale Farm confrontation has come to symbolize Britain's inability
> to integrate Travellers and Gypsies into society, and also served as a
> litmus test of the larger crisis of housing that afflicts Roma and
> Gypsies throughout Europe.

This is of considerable interest to me and I thank "++" as the OP.
I and my wife are of Romani descent. I was (among other things) a Planner
in that benighted country until the opportunity came for us to vote with
our feet.

The problem is centuries old.
Common Law rights were significantly curtailed in a particulary obnoxious
piece of legislation in 1968. This imposed certain obligations on local
authorities to provide sites for "travellers" and the like, but only if
they were living in the local authority area. This turned into a carte-
blanche to move people on to another area. The sites that were provided
were usually totally unsuitable for the needs of the occupants, and often
policed oppressively and violently. Deaths occurred as a direct result of
such actions.

The only site that worked was the one owned by Barbara Cartland, the
romance writer. Barbara was a bit too 'big' and well-connected to push
around ....

> <snip>
>
> The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
> to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
> side.

The minority in this case had a framework best described as having a
'foot in both camps'. Eg be part of the 'world' of the majority but keep
all the elements of your culture that are valuable and proven (over the
centuries) to be sustainable.

> Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
> fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
> mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
> attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
> side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
> for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
> eventually.

Difficult in the overcrowded north-west corner of the planet, with its
long history or coercion. The Europeans tried shipping the Roma off to
colonies in the 'new world' but soon gave up when the ships failed to
return :-)

It is a lot easier in a vast country like Australia, where the old feudal
law that you should stay in one place cannot work.
The Australian Census is conducted in August, which happens to be the
time of year when more people are 'at home' than at any other time. But
even then, at least 10% of the population are somewhere else.
It is estimated that there are between 16,000 and 25,000 people in
Australia who are of Romani descent - and know it. However, only about 6
- 700 people declare themselves as Roma on the Census form.
Once bitten, twice shy eh ...


Posted by Michael Bulatovich on December 12, 2007, 4:32 pm

>
>>
>> AdvocacyNet
>> News Bulletin 125
>> *****
>>
>
> [Extensively snipped]
>
>> Dale Farm Travellers Win Key Concession as Eviction Deadline
>> Approaches
>>
>
>> The Dale Farm confrontation has come to symbolize Britain's inability
>> to integrate Travellers and Gypsies into society, and also served as a
>> litmus test of the larger crisis of housing that afflicts Roma and
>> Gypsies throughout Europe.
>
> This is of considerable interest to me and I thank "++" as the OP.

Me too.

> I and my wife are of Romani descent. I was (among other things) a Planner
> in that benighted country until the opportunity came for us to vote with
> our feet.

I salute you, and am curious about the Romani. My balkan heritage exposed me
to a few as I was growing up.

> The problem is centuries old.
> Common Law rights were significantly curtailed in a particulary obnoxious
> piece of legislation in 1968. This imposed certain obligations on local
> authorities to provide sites for "travellers" and the like, but only if
> they were living in the local authority area. This turned into a carte-
> blanche to move people on to another area. The sites that were provided
> were usually totally unsuitable for the needs of the occupants, and often
> policed oppressively and violently. Deaths occurred as a direct result of
> such actions.
>
> The only site that worked was the one owned by Barbara Cartland, the
> romance writer. Barbara was a bit too 'big' and well-connected to push
> around ....
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
>> to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
>> side.
>
> The minority in this case had a framework best described as having a
> 'foot in both camps'. Eg be part of the 'world' of the majority but keep
> all the elements of your culture that are valuable and proven (over the
> centuries) to be sustainable.
>
>> Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
>> fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
>> mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
>> attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
>> side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
>> for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
>> eventually.
>
> Difficult in the overcrowded north-west corner of the planet, with its
> long history or coercion. The Europeans tried shipping the Roma off to
> colonies in the 'new world' but soon gave up when the ships failed to
> return :-)
>
> It is a lot easier in a vast country like Australia, where the old feudal
> law that you should stay in one place cannot work.
> The Australian Census is conducted in August, which happens to be the
> time of year when more people are 'at home' than at any other time. But
> even then, at least 10% of the population are somewhere else.
> It is estimated that there are between 16,000 and 25,000 people in
> Australia who are of Romani descent - and know it. However, only about 6
> - 700 people declare themselves as Roma on the Census form.
> Once bitten, twice shy eh ...

Yeah, like many Jews. They don't advertise.



Posted by ++ on December 12, 2007, 6:17 pm


Troppo wrote:

>
>
>This is of considerable interest to me and I thank "++" as the OP.
>
>

You are welcome

>I and my wife are of Romani descent. I was (among other things) a Planner
>in that benighted country until the opportunity came for us to vote with
>our feet.
>
>
And I am a planner here, among other things. Nomadic architecture is no
less architecture for being moveable, and the nomadic lifestyle
challenges how we should look at possessions, how much we need.
People's thoughts and lives are easier to control when one basic freedom
of movement is taken away by imposing a certain attitude toward settlement.

>The problem is centuries old.
>Common Law rights were significantly curtailed in a particulary obnoxious
>piece of legislation in 1968. This imposed certain obligations on local
>authorities to provide sites for "travellers" and the like, but only if
>they were living in the local authority area. This turned into a carte-
>blanche to move people on to another area. The sites that were provided
>were usually totally unsuitable for the needs of the occupants, and often
>policed oppressively and violently. Deaths occurred as a direct result of
>such actions.
>
>The only site that worked was the one owned by Barbara Cartland, the
>romance writer. Barbara was a bit too 'big' and well-connected to push
>around ....
>
>

i'd like to read about that, if I could.

>
>
>><snip>
>>
>>The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
>>to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
>>side.
>>
>>
>
>The minority in this case had a framework best described as having a
>'foot in both camps'. Eg be part of the 'world' of the majority but keep
>all the elements of your culture that are valuable and proven (over the
>centuries) to be sustainable.
>
>
>
>>Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
>>fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
>>mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
>>attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
>>side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
>>for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
>>eventually.
>>
>>
>
>Difficult in the overcrowded north-west corner of the planet, with its
>long history or coercion. The Europeans tried shipping the Roma off to
>colonies in the 'new world' but soon gave up when the ships failed to
>return :-)
>
>

When I was a child, you could see evidence of travellers everywhere in
the US, but particularly in the south. Now, it is as if they do not exist.

>It is a lot easier in a vast country like Australia, where the old feudal
>law that you should stay in one place cannot work.
>The Australian Census is conducted in August, which happens to be the
>time of year when more people are 'at home' than at any other time. But
>even then, at least 10% of the population are somewhere else.
>It is estimated that there are between 16,000 and 25,000 people in
>Australia who are of Romani descent - and know it. However, only about 6
>- 700 people declare themselves as Roma on the Census form.
>Once bitten, twice shy eh ...
>
>
>
>


Posted by Michael Bulatovich on December 13, 2007, 9:03 am

>
>
> Troppo wrote:
>
>>
>> This is of considerable interest to me and I thank "++" as the OP.
>>
>
> You are welcome
>
>>I and my wife are of Romani descent. I was (among other things) a Planner
>>in that benighted country until the opportunity came for us to vote with
>>our feet.
>>
> And I am a planner here, among other things. Nomadic architecture is no
> less architecture for being moveable, and the nomadic lifestyle challenges
> how we should look at possessions, how much we need. People's thoughts
> and lives are easier to control when one basic freedom of movement is
> taken away by imposing a certain attitude toward settlement.
>
>>The problem is centuries old. Common Law rights were significantly
>>curtailed in a particulary obnoxious piece of legislation in 1968. This
>>imposed certain obligations on local authorities to provide sites for
>>"travellers" and the like, but only if they were living in the local
>>authority area. This turned into a carte-
>>blanche to move people on to another area. The sites that were provided
>>were usually totally unsuitable for the needs of the occupants, and often
>>policed oppressively and violently. Deaths occurred as a direct result of
>>such actions.
>>
>>The only site that worked was the one owned by Barbara Cartland, the
>>romance writer. Barbara was a bit too 'big' and well-connected to push
>>around ....
>>
>
> i'd like to read about that, if I could.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
>>>to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
>>>side.
>>
>>The minority in this case had a framework best described as having a 'foot
>>in both camps'. Eg be part of the 'world' of the majority but keep all the
>>elements of your culture that are valuable and proven (over the centuries)
>>to be sustainable.
>>
>>>Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
>>>fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
>>>mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
>>>attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
>>>side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
>>>for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
>>>eventually.
>>
>>Difficult in the overcrowded north-west corner of the planet, with its
>>long history or coercion. The Europeans tried shipping the Roma off to
>>colonies in the 'new world' but soon gave up when the ships failed to
>>return :-)
>>
>
> When I was a child, you could see evidence of travellers everywhere in the
> US, but particularly in the south. Now, it is as if they do not exist.

What would that look like? Bands of people in trailers/RVs?



Posted by ++ on December 13, 2007, 3:55 pm


Michael Bulatovich wrote:

>
>
>>Troppo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>This is of considerable interest to me and I thank "++" as the OP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>You are welcome
>>
>>
>>
>>>I and my wife are of Romani descent. I was (among other things) a Planner
>>>in that benighted country until the opportunity came for us to vote with
>>>our feet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>And I am a planner here, among other things. Nomadic architecture is no
>>less architecture for being moveable, and the nomadic lifestyle challenges
>>how we should look at possessions, how much we need. People's thoughts
>>and lives are easier to control when one basic freedom of movement is
>>taken away by imposing a certain attitude toward settlement.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The problem is centuries old. Common Law rights were significantly
>>>curtailed in a particulary obnoxious piece of legislation in 1968. This
>>>imposed certain obligations on local authorities to provide sites for
>>>"travellers" and the like, but only if they were living in the local
>>>authority area. This turned into a carte-
>>>blanche to move people on to another area. The sites that were provided
>>>were usually totally unsuitable for the needs of the occupants, and often
>>>policed oppressively and violently. Deaths occurred as a direct result of
>>>such actions.
>>>
>>>The only site that worked was the one owned by Barbara Cartland, the
>>>romance writer. Barbara was a bit too 'big' and well-connected to push
>>>around ....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>i'd like to read about that, if I could.
>>
>>
>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
>>>>to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
>>>>side.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The minority in this case had a framework best described as having a 'foot
>>>in both camps'. Eg be part of the 'world' of the majority but keep all the
>>>elements of your culture that are valuable and proven (over the centuries)
>>>to be sustainable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
>>>>fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
>>>>mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
>>>>attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
>>>>side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
>>>>for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
>>>>eventually.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Difficult in the overcrowded north-west corner of the planet, with its
>>>long history or coercion. The Europeans tried shipping the Roma off to
>>>colonies in the 'new world' but soon gave up when the ships failed to
>>>return :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>When I was a child, you could see evidence of travellers everywhere in the
>>US, but particularly in the south. Now, it is as if they do not exist.
>>
>>
>
>What would that look like? Bands of people in trailers/RVs?
>
>

The traveller wagons, whether motorized or not, from 19th to mid and a
bit later 20th century in the US were quite unique. The most
interesting one I recollect from early childhood had a barel vaulted
roof, curved sides with sliding windos that opened for viewing and for
trade, built in compartments for storing everything from goods for sale
to personal items, built in wooden cabintry (all carved and decorated)
on the interior, built in fold down beds and other nomdic furnishings,
hanging bells, whistles, pieces of totemic decorative flags and cloth,
similar to what one would see on memorial trees in Mongolia or attached
on the outside of a doorway on a yurt, and wonderful coloration, all
pulled by a horse and with several other horses led behind. The wheels
were large wagon wheels but with truck treads of rubber. When travellers
were more openly a part of southern (and maybe elsewhere?) culture,
there was little negative about them, at least to children - to an
extent they were admired. Mostly, there were odd stories. My
grandmother, for example, maintained the fiction to my mother as a child
that contrary to the stories about Gypsies stealing children, she had
actually stolen my mother from them, which accounted for her being
darker than the rest of the family with the astounding statement that
this was the "best theft I ever pulled off in my vainglorious life" or
so the fiction of my mother went. Ha!

Another exampl;e of the positive effect of gypsies on American culture
is this idea of freedom. American Brownie scouts, accounting for a
large percentage of American girls, of about 7 years are all taught the
following song:

There were three gypsies a come to my door
And downstairs ran this a lady, O!
One sang high and another sang low
And the other sang Raggle Tagle Gypsies, O!

Then she pulled off her silk finished gown
And put on hose of leather, O!
Theservants said on every hand that
She's gone with the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!

It was late last night, when my lord came home
Enquiring for his a-lady, O!
The servants said, on every hand
She's gone with the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!

O saddle for me my milk-white steed
Go and fetch me my pony, O!
That I may ride and seek my bride
Who is gone with the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!

O he rode high and he rode low
He rode through woods and copses too
Until he came to a wide open field
And there he espied his a-lady, O!

"What makes you leave your house and land?
What makes you leave your money, O?
What makes you leave your new wedded lord
To go with the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O?"


"What care I for my house and my land?
What care I for my money, O?
What care I for my new wedded lord?
I'm off with the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!"

"Last night you slept on a goose-feather bed
With the sheet turned down so bravely, O!
To go and sleep in a cold open field
Along with the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!"

"What care I for a goose-feather bed
With the sheet turned down so bravely, O!
For to-night I shall sleep in a cold open field
Along with the rRaggle Taggle Gypsies, O!"

more or less

>
>
>
>


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