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Subject Author Date
Support the Nomads ++ 12-11-2007
---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-12-2007
| |--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-12-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-13-2007
| |--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-13-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-14-2007
| | `--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-14-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-19-2007
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Posted by Michael Bulatovich on December 14, 2007, 2:34 pm

>
>
> Michael Bulatovich wrote:
>
>>>>Do the Romani see assimilation as a threat to their continuation?
>>>>
> Endangered peoples not so much by reason of assimilation but
> marginalization: http://www.errc.org/English_index.php
>
>>That places them in Persia, doesn't it?
>>
> Last ruling group of Zoroastrians in post Islamic/Turkish times in
> nowadays Iran, but pre Selcuk, was the Buyids. Their civilization
> predates only slightly some of the Roma migrations to Europe along an
> already established trade route. Something to consider. Are Troppo's
> ancestors Buyids?
>
> Buyids had an astounding architecture, what few building remain:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buwayhid
> https://edit.britannica.com/getEditableToc?tocId=32168
> http://www.bartleby.com/65/bu/Buyid.html
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0078-6527(1965%2F1966)18%3C143%3AMOUTBO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T
> http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilgamesh/buyid.html
>
> Unfortunately, a lot written has an incredible Iranian bias.
>
> It should be carefully considered that Buyid metalwork closely resembles
> in technique and quality of craftsmanship, Roma metalwork which begins to
> appear after there were establish Roma metalworking centers (ex. Tula)
>
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0732-2992(1983)1%3C69%3ATOPANA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23
>
> See the following for some Sassanian Buyid links:
>
> http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/sasanian_palaces_islam.htm
>
> Note from the second article that although we have little surviving Buyid
> architecture, we know absoltuely that Selcuk architecture was (poorly, in
> terms of craftsmanship) imitative in every respect from metalwork to
> brickwork. And that is glorious enough.
>
>
http://archnet.org/library/sites/sites.jsp?letter=&country_code=&place_id=&type=&style=Buyid&usage=&century=&decade=&order_by=site&showdescription=1
>
> or http://tinyurl.com/ytmc94
>
> http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/06/wai/hod_40.170.176.htm (enlarge the
> pattern once you are there)
>
> http://tinyurl.com/35aftf
>
> (I am having a hard time finding material online....that I want to show)
>
> http://www.essential-architecture.com/ASIA-WEST/WA-IR/WA-IR-001.htm
>
> Note elements inroduced for the first time by Buyids that we take for
> granted in Islamic architecture today. Also note the connection between
> Egyptian and Iranian architecture in the use of monumental iwans which
> were (because of the Turkish propensity) doubled during the Selcuks.

You mean for doing things twice?

> http://tinyurl.com/2bl4x7 is another general page or two on the topic.
> search other pages of Ettinghausen.
>
> What happened to the Buyids of Iran and Iraq after expulsion?

Don't ask me. Thanks for all that, BTW. It's clear to me that what I think
of as Balkan, and a lot of eastern European music is largely Romani.



Posted by ++ on December 14, 2007, 3:35 pm


Michael Bulatovich wrote:

>
>
>>Michael Bulatovich wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>Do the Romani see assimilation as a threat to their continuation?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>Endangered peoples not so much by reason of assimilation but
>>marginalization: http://www.errc.org/English_index.php
>>
>>
>>
>>>That places them in Persia, doesn't it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Last ruling group of Zoroastrians in post Islamic/Turkish times in
>>nowadays Iran, but pre Selcuk, was the Buyids. Their civilization
>>predates only slightly some of the Roma migrations to Europe along an
>>already established trade route. Something to consider. Are Troppo's
>>ancestors Buyids?
>>
>>Buyids had an astounding architecture, what few building remain:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buwayhid
>>https://edit.britannica.com/getEditableToc?tocId=32168
>>http://www.bartleby.com/65/bu/Buyid.html
>>http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0078-6527(1965%2F1966)18%3C143%3AMOUTBO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T
>>http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilgamesh/buyid.html
>>
>>Unfortunately, a lot written has an incredible Iranian bias.
>>
>>It should be carefully considered that Buyid metalwork closely resembles
>>in technique and quality of craftsmanship, Roma metalwork which begins to
>>appear after there were establish Roma metalworking centers (ex. Tula)
>>
>>http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0732-2992(1983)1%3C69%3ATOPANA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23
>>
>>See the following for some Sassanian Buyid links:
>>
>>http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Architecture/sasanian_palaces_islam.htm
>>
>>Note from the second article that although we have little surviving Buyid
>>architecture, we know absoltuely that Selcuk architecture was (poorly, in
>>terms of craftsmanship) imitative in every respect from metalwork to
>>brickwork. And that is glorious enough.
>>
>>http://archnet.org/library/sites/sites.jsp?letter=&country_code=&place_id=&type=&style=Buyid&usage=&century=&decade=&order_by=site&showdescription=1
>>
>>or http://tinyurl.com/ytmc94
>>
>>http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/06/wai/hod_40.170.176.htm (enlarge the
>>pattern once you are there)
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/35aftf
>>
>>(I am having a hard time finding material online....that I want to show)
>>
>>http://www.essential-architecture.com/ASIA-WEST/WA-IR/WA-IR-001.htm
>>
>>Note elements inroduced for the first time by Buyids that we take for
>>granted in Islamic architecture today. Also note the connection between
>>Egyptian and Iranian architecture in the use of monumental iwans which
>>were (because of the Turkish propensity) doubled during the Selcuks.
>>
>>
>
>You mean for doing things twice? The Buyids introduced elements we consider
standard in Islamic architecture. The Selcuks that followed the Buyids, and in
some cases finished their monumental buildings, both copied their style in
almost everything but added soem of their own elements, particularly having
compass point entrances which replicated, to an extent, their early
Mongol/Turkic military encampments and organization.
>
>
>
>>http://tinyurl.com/2bl4x7 is another general page or two on the topic.
>>search other pages of Ettinghausen.
>>
>>What happened to the Buyids of Iran and Iraq after expulsion?
>>
>>
>
>Don't ask me. Thanks for all that, BTW. It's clear to me that what I think
>of as Balkan, and a lot of eastern European music is largely Romani.
>
>
In some things like music, it is hard to say what was the genesus for
anything in particular. The ney of Iran is the kaval of the Balkans and
is made from the same reed cane, which I may have pointed out before
(arundo donax)in some discussion of pernicious imports for landscaping.
The scales of Byzantine music are essentailly Syriac and Judaic
tradition. The intervals of Indian music scales are as varied as
Byzantine (and South Slavic) and several musicologists have found that
there is a complete relication of some Indian with some Byzantine. Is
this accidental or not? Roma have completely taken over for traditional
musicians in some countrires, i.e. there used to be non Roma musicians
doing music in Hungary, for example, that almost only Roma do today.
Who invented what is not so important sometimes as carrying on the
tradition or heritage. The Roma were kept as slaves longer than any
other people in Europe and were freed last in Romania where they did
almost all of the cooking, so it is unclear how much was invented by
whom, almost all of the music and a great deal of the fine metalwork
which they also still do in the Balkans (music and jewelry making and
fine metalwork, tookmaking and metal repair). These all can be nomadic
occupations

Take a look at Mamluk metalwork and Byzantine metalwork of Egypt. It is
also difficult to discern the difference, also, sometimes of Celtic and
Roma metal techniques. Why? Hard to know.

The term cincar (tsintsar), an ononomopoetic term, refers to the
metalworking ability of Roma.among Latinic speaking people. What we
mistakenly think of as the Russian samovar is actually Roma metalwork.
Lemme see if there is anything worth perusing about Tula online. If one
gets an antique samovar, one often sees the marks from the dates of its
retinning on the inside and the city name impression and date. Tula is
common as a repair place as well as a place of origin for much fine
metalwork and repair.

http://www.russian-gifts-home.com/samovars/tula_samovar.htm
http://www.russian-gifts-home.com/samovars/samovar.htm

inlay: http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/uploads/post-1151-1178196437.jpg

table: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/eue/ho_2002.115.htm

*folktale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Cross-eyed_Lefty_from_Tula_and_the_Steel_Flea




*



>
>
>
>


Posted by Troppo on December 14, 2007, 3:51 pm

>
>>
>>> Do the Romani see assimilation as a threat to their continuation?
>>
>> Not easy to answer. Assimilation has been attempted for centuries,
>> but the Roma go on. Take religious belief for example. "It is said"
>> of my particular branch tribe of the so-called 16 tribes, that they
>> originally followed the religion of "Zoster" (Zoroaster).
>
> That places them in Persia, doesn't it?

Or India. Or spending time in/passing through both
>
>>> Usually when a group manages to have their group identity survive
>>> over long periods, it requires institutions of some kind. Jews have
>>> their religion, language and, of course, their covenant. What do the
>>> Romani have that binds them together for centuries as they move
>>> through often hostile host cultures?
>>
>> With religion, you go with the flow. There is the 'Kris' or Council
>> of elders, but that tends to be a fairly fluid, contingent
>> arrangement. Usually, anyone called a "leader" or "king" is described
>> as such for the ease and comfort of the host population, but there
>> have been exceptions. In Romania, Jan Ciob declared himself King of
>> the Gypsies and even got himself crowned as such in a church. (One of
>> his brothers took exception to this, went back to Romania from the
>> US, and declared himself Emperor.) The Dictator Nicolae Ceausescu
>> (who gave everyone a bad time) was terrified of Jan, used to have
>> nightmares that he was coming down the corridor to kill him. So
>> Ceausescu maybe was a bit easier with Jan's people. I met someone who
>> had met Jan; they described him as having "the wildest eyes I have
>> ever seen in another human being". Seems that his daughter and
>> granddaughter are carrying on the good work ...
>
> He obviously didn't watch the Maple Leafs:
>
> http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20040121/tucker_572.jpg

LOL. Apparently, Jan once turned up at an IRU (Internatinal Romani Union)
conference in Strasbourg. Pulled out a Colt 45 (no kidding) started
waiving it around, told the assembled delegates what he thought of them.

>
>>> [snip]

>> Could have been in a European language,
>
> I'm familiar enough with all but Hungarian and Finish to extract a
> word or two from just about any european language. If it was European,
> it was Hungarian.

Very possible. Depends how long ago the poster appeared. There will be
people these days who can produce a more or less standardised Romanes
text.
Much work done by Ian Hancock, a Rom, and linguist at University of Texas
- Austin.
Literacy is another conundrum. Roma will probably still claim illiteracy
as a form of defence, eg "I can't read (the parking tickets) - I thought
they were advertising fliers".

They are also good at dealing with researchers of all kinds. At one time
my wife generated some interest because she is uncannily good at palm
reading & tarot, but they soon backed off when they discovered that she
also has a post-graduate degree in Material Anthropology.

>> but might have been Romanes -
>> Sanscrit-based. Often used to justify an origin in the Indian sub-
>> continent. However, Sanscrit originated as Phoenician. The
>> Phoenicians were the traders of the early middle-eastern world, so if
>> you traded, Phoenician was the language you used.
>> 400km south of here on the eastern seaboard of Australia, there are
>> the remains of a sea port, and carvings that are recognisable as
>> Phoenician.
>
> That's interesting. Any links?

http://phoenicia.org/australia.html

The Professor from Cairo, on NatGeo/Discovery Channel, finding black
opals in undisturbed Egyptian burial sites. How did that happen :-)


Posted by Michael Bulatovich on December 14, 2007, 9:31 pm

>
>>
>>>
>>>> Do the Romani see assimilation as a threat to their continuation?
>>>
>>> Not easy to answer. Assimilation has been attempted for centuries,
>>> but the Roma go on. Take religious belief for example. "It is said"
>>> of my particular branch tribe of the so-called 16 tribes, that they
>>> originally followed the religion of "Zoster" (Zoroaster).
>>
>> That places them in Persia, doesn't it?
>
> Or India. Or spending time in/passing through both
>>
>>>> Usually when a group manages to have their group identity survive
>>>> over long periods, it requires institutions of some kind. Jews have
>>>> their religion, language and, of course, their covenant. What do the
>>>> Romani have that binds them together for centuries as they move
>>>> through often hostile host cultures?
>>>
>>> With religion, you go with the flow. There is the 'Kris' or Council
>>> of elders, but that tends to be a fairly fluid, contingent
>>> arrangement. Usually, anyone called a "leader" or "king" is described
>>> as such for the ease and comfort of the host population, but there
>>> have been exceptions. In Romania, Jan Ciob declared himself King of
>>> the Gypsies and even got himself crowned as such in a church. (One of
>>> his brothers took exception to this, went back to Romania from the
>>> US, and declared himself Emperor.) The Dictator Nicolae Ceausescu
>>> (who gave everyone a bad time) was terrified of Jan, used to have
>>> nightmares that he was coming down the corridor to kill him. So
>>> Ceausescu maybe was a bit easier with Jan's people. I met someone who
>>> had met Jan; they described him as having "the wildest eyes I have
>>> ever seen in another human being". Seems that his daughter and
>>> granddaughter are carrying on the good work ...
>>
>> He obviously didn't watch the Maple Leafs:
>>
>> http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20040121/tucker_572.jpg
>
> LOL. Apparently, Jan once turned up at an IRU (Internatinal Romani Union)
> conference in Strasbourg. Pulled out a Colt 45 (no kidding) started
> waiving it around, told the assembled delegates what he thought of them.

<snip>

A standard Serbian party game, only usually done with one end of a broken
bottle, and usually played in pairs when thoroughly drunk : D)



Posted by ++ on December 14, 2007, 12:54 pm


Troppo wrote lots of fascinating stuff, and:

>400km south of here on the eastern seaboard of Australia, there are the
>remains of a sea port, and carvings that are recognisable as Phoenician.
>
>

Name, link to the Phoenician port? Certainly India had Phonecian ports.

In a couple ocuntries i am running into Egiptani who do speak a
different language than Romani and claim to be a different people. Do
you know anything about them? The Egiptani claim the Romani are
Rajasthani originally, while originally they are Egyptians. Are
credence to this? They do look somehow as Egyptians. They have an
association in Macedonia and their numbers there, not so large are
unfortunately made larger from some of the Kosovo Egiptani joining them
for safety. Ppeople outside of them claim that they have a false
history since the word Gypsy, an English word, derives from the word
Egyptian from a false impression by someone in the middle Ages that they
came from Egypt. But perhaps one group that was Egiptani, i.e. Egyptian
nomads, ent to Europe and so every other nomadic group was stuck with a
name incorrectly derived for them. Evidently, genome studies have linked
the Romani to Rajasthan.


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