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Subject Author Date
Support the Nomads ++ 12-11-2007
---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-12-2007
| |--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-12-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-13-2007
| |--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-13-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-14-2007
| | `--> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-14-2007
| ---> Re: Support the Nomads Michael Bulatov...12-19-2007
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Posted by Troppo on December 14, 2007, 4:29 pm
pf6Xv_anZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@rcn.net:

>
>
> Troppo wrote lots of fascinating stuff, and:
>
>>400km south of here on the eastern seaboard of Australia, there are the
>>remains of a sea port, and carvings that are recognisable as
Phoenician.
>>
>>
>
> Name, link to the Phoenician port? Certainly India had Phonecian
ports.

http://phoenicia.org/australia.html

The reference to Zoraster comes from Manfri Wood (collateral kin). Fairly
cryptic stuff - as you might expect.

>
> In a couple ocuntries i am running into Egiptani who do speak a
> different language than Romani and claim to be a different people. Do
> you know anything about them? The Egiptani claim the Romani are
> Rajasthani originally, while originally they are Egyptians.
> [Any] credence to this? They do look somehow as Egyptians.

Another cultural defence possibly? Puzzles like this were useful to the
Roma. If the host society got it wrong/couldn't work it out then it helps
to protect the minority. Roma would often say "no - we are not [that lot]
we are [another lot]".

> They have an association in Macedonia and their numbers there, not so
> large are
> unfortunately made larger from some of the Kosovo Egiptani joining them
> for safety.

Aha - A clue there. The biggest Roma group in Australia is from
Macedonia. The Rom symbol of the 16-spoked wheel could be derived from
the 16 pointed star of Macedonia, derived "it is said" from Alexander.

> People outside of them claim that they have a false
> history since the word Gypsy, an English word, derives from the word
> Egyptian from a false impression by someone in the middle Ages that
> they came from Egypt.

Or "little" Egypt - last point of embarkation somewhere in Greece I
think.

"Where are you from" is an imprecise question. You mean - last week? Last
year? Last millenium?

> But perhaps one group that was Egiptani, i.e. Egyptian
> nomads, ent to Europe and so every other nomadic group was stuck with a
> name incorrectly derived for them. Evidently, genome studies have
> linked the Romani to Rajasthan.

Yes. The Indian subcontinent was the place to be for a long period of
time. High civilisation when the Europeans were still bashing each other
with clubs. And there are many Roma in Rajasthan who didn't go west. But
do they come from there?

Most societies have a tradition about where they "came from". "God made
us out of mud". Scientists continue to wrestle over proto-humans and
their origins. The Roma simply couldn't resist trumping this sort of
thing - "We came from the stars ... ".

Posted by Michael Bulatovich on December 14, 2007, 9:33 pm

> pf6Xv_anZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@rcn.net:
>
>>
>>
>> Troppo wrote lots of fascinating stuff, and:
>>
>>>400km south of here on the eastern seaboard of Australia, there are the
>>>remains of a sea port, and carvings that are recognisable as
> Phoenician.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Name, link to the Phoenician port? Certainly India had Phonecian
> ports.
>
> http://phoenicia.org/australia.html
>
> The reference to Zoraster comes from Manfri Wood (collateral kin). Fairly
> cryptic stuff - as you might expect.
>
>>
>> In a couple ocuntries i am running into Egiptani who do speak a
>> different language than Romani and claim to be a different people. Do
>> you know anything about them? The Egiptani claim the Romani are
>> Rajasthani originally, while originally they are Egyptians.
>> [Any] credence to this? They do look somehow as Egyptians.
>
> Another cultural defence possibly? Puzzles like this were useful to the
> Roma. If the host society got it wrong/couldn't work it out then it helps
> to protect the minority. Roma would often say "no - we are not [that lot]
> we are [another lot]".
>
>> They have an association in Macedonia and their numbers there, not so
>> large are
>> unfortunately made larger from some of the Kosovo Egiptani joining them
>> for safety.
>
> Aha - A clue there. The biggest Roma group in Australia is from
> Macedonia. The Rom symbol of the 16-spoked wheel could be derived from
> the 16 pointed star of Macedonia, derived "it is said" from Alexander.
>
>> People outside of them claim that they have a false
>> history since the word Gypsy, an English word, derives from the word
>> Egyptian from a false impression by someone in the middle Ages that
>> they came from Egypt.
>
> Or "little" Egypt - last point of embarkation somewhere in Greece I
> think.
>
> "Where are you from" is an imprecise question. You mean - last week? Last
> year? Last millenium?
>
>> But perhaps one group that was Egiptani, i.e. Egyptian
>> nomads, ent to Europe and so every other nomadic group was stuck with a
>> name incorrectly derived for them. Evidently, genome studies have
>> linked the Romani to Rajasthan.
>
> Yes. The Indian subcontinent was the place to be for a long period of
> time. High civilisation when the Europeans were still bashing each other
> with clubs. And there are many Roma in Rajasthan who didn't go west. But
> do they come from there?
>
> Most societies have a tradition about where they "came from". "God made
> us out of mud". Scientists continue to wrestle over proto-humans and
> their origins. The Roma simply couldn't resist trumping this sort of
> thing - "We came from the stars ... ".

Salesmen!



Posted by Kris Krieger on December 19, 2007, 2:20 pm


>
> <snip>
>
> The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
> to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
> side. Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
> fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
> mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
> attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
> side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
> for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
> eventually.
>

That's the problem when people refuse to comprimise. Certainly there are
things which should not be open to comprimise, tho' they'd make for a very
long thesis, so I'm assiduously avoiding any sort of partial listing. A
great many things, however, and perhpas even most things, should be subject
to comprimises, because the sort of "winners-versus-losers" situation you
mention merely deepens dissatisfaction overall, causing mroe problems than
it solves.



Posted by Michael Bulatovich on December 19, 2007, 2:34 pm

>
>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't likely
>> to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by either
>> side. Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
>> fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed and
>> mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side will
>> attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of one
>> side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a victory
>> for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is co-opted
>> eventually.
>>
>
> That's the problem when people refuse to comprimise. Certainly there are
> things which should not be open to comprimise, tho' they'd make for a very
> long thesis, so I'm assiduously avoiding any sort of partial listing. A
> great many things, however, and perhpas even most things, should be
> subject
> to comprimises, because the sort of "winners-versus-losers" situation you
> mention merely deepens dissatisfaction overall, causing mroe problems than
> it solves.

The fact that both exist at all in the same jurisdiction already points to
some kind of compromise or, at least,an extermination still underway. My
point is that these seem to be antitheses.



Posted by Kris Krieger on December 19, 2007, 5:41 pm

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> The fundamental divide between the mobile and the rooted isn't
>>> likely to be bridged with a conceptual framework devised solely by
>>> either side. Tactically the rooted will tend towards stockpiling and
>>> fortification, while the mobile will tend toward lightness, speed
>>> and mobility. One side will seek penetration, while the other side
>>> will attempt repulsion. I'm not sure how one uses the strategies of
>>> one side to accommodate the other side without it being seen as a
>>> victory for one and a defeat of the other, unless one of them is
>>> co-opted eventually.
>>>
>>
>> That's the problem when people refuse to comprimise. Certainly there
>> are things which should not be open to comprimise, tho' they'd make
>> for a very long thesis, so I'm assiduously avoiding any sort of
>> partial listing. A great many things, however, and perhpas even most
>> things, should be subject
>> to comprimises, because the sort of "winners-versus-losers" situation
>> you mention merely deepens dissatisfaction overall, causing mroe
>> problems than it solves.
>
> The fact that both exist at all in the same jurisdiction already
> points to some kind of compromise or, at least,an extermination still
> underway. My point is that these seem to be antitheses.
>

Well, extermination is IMO the worst possible situation, but it's
unfortunately what often happnes (usually?) when a majority deems a
minority to be nothing more than a pain in the butt.

Re: thesis:antithesis, yes, but the only way to avoid such pairings (or
to be perhpas more exact, triplicities, of thesis, antithesis, and
synthesis/neothesis) is to eliminate complexity. Monothesis,
monoculture.

Stability versis mobility, security versus freedom, and so on - most
people see them as disconnected oppositions, but that's not the fact.
We're all mixtures of things that seem, on the superficial first glance,
to be dichotomous, and one thing cannot be eliminited without excising
part of what it is that makes us human.

Kind of too tired right now to go into that much more in detail, but I
think that's the gist of it.

In a way, nomads are like the birds - if you make a place for them, they
can enrich your life. OK, that sounds awfully warmfuzzy-touchyfeelie,
but really, life is enriched when we open ourselves to different
experiences. ANd it's often the apparent dichotomies that enrich a
culture.


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