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Posted by Secretia Green on February 2, 2007, 6:45 pm
Why are you still discussing this?
*The Panel* has spoken.
They have stated:
"There can be no question".
So there. Please, no more questioning for Christ's sake.
YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD.
>> Pierre Levesque wrote:
>> > You're so full of shyte Paul, it's appalling. Take your damn political
>> > glasses off. Forget that the most common "spokespeople" for all this
>> > are
>> > your hated rival politicians and take a look outside. Take a straight
>> > forward look at recorded temperatures over the past hundreds of years,
>> > both
>> > by recorded notes and by scientific dating. Take a look at your own
>> > history... recall what it was like when you were a kid vs today. It
>> > doesn't
>> > take much to realize that whehter or not global warming is a manmade
>> > phenomina it is ABSOLUTELY hotter on the planet.
>>
>> The issue isn't climate change...it never has been. The climate HAS
>> ALWAYS CHANGED!!! There is no such a thing as the "correct" temperature
>> or climate. The earth swings between hot and cold, with MOST of the
>> past history being very cold...and the northern hemisphere under ice.
>>
>> Here's the long and the short of it. The "magic" hockey stick graph,
>> showing we're in the warmest period of the past whatever years has been
>> shown, using math and good science, to be crap. The statistical
>> analysis used to create the graph has proved the graph to be crap. The
>> tree-ring proxy data, the primary data used to create the graph, has
>> also been proved to be bad--that is that tree rings are not proxies for
>> temperature. The issue of glaciers is far from settled and there is
>> great debate about them and what it all means. There is good ocean
>> sediment data showing a medieval warm period that is warmer than
>> today---without any help from you driving your car. The earth may be
>> getting warmer, but how much is natural variation? How much of it is
>> caused by people? WE DO NOT KNOW.
>>
>> I'll debate the specifics...the math and the data. The burden of proof
>> is on those who think that man's activities have caused it. So far, I
>> have not seen credible evidence (that is credible, real data or
>> credible, real, falsifiable science) to support it. I've seen "climate
>> scientists" use and re-use the same tree-ring and isotope proxy data
>> over and over and over again--all claiming independence. I've seen the
>> hurricate/tropical storm counts data in a complete mess.
>>
>> > In fact, forget about all the "nobody tells you" scenario's you put
>> > forth
>> > above and just look at certain earth features that are real gigantic
>> > earth
>> > features that can't be hidden behind statistics, that are so huge they
>> > can
>> > be seen from space, and that are constantly moving... look at the
>> > glaciers
>> > of the world.
>>
>> http://www.climateaudit.org/?cat=43
>>
>> Pictures of today don't tell the whole story...and you're only getting
>> part of it.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Take a peek at the photos found on these websites. Don't read the data
>> > or
>> > artcicles. Just look at the pictures. Then give me your best "guess"
>> > at
>> > what/how/that stuff happened (BTW, don't come back here claiming that
>> > the
>> > images were "doctored up" or you'll lose ALL credibility)
>>
>> >http://www.nrmsc.usgs.gov/research/glacier_retreat.htmor here;
>> >http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.htmlor here;
>> >http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20010410iceland_glacier.htmlor here;
>> >http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/photosvideos/slideshows/the-incredible-...
>> > or here;
>> >http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/photosvideos/slideshows/the-incredible-...
>> > or here;
>> >http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/photosvideos/slideshows/the-incredible-...
>> > or here;
>> >http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/photosvideos/slideshows/the-incredible-...
>> > or here;
>> >http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/photosvideos/slideshows/the-incredible-...
>> > or here;
>> >http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/photosvideos/slideshows/the-incredible-...
>> > or here;
>> >http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=129or here;
>> >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?o=5&f=/c/a/2004/12/17/MN...
>>
>> Pictures, even real ones, are not the whole story. You want an
>> example--here's a good one. There are pictures of a larger glacier on
>> Mt. Kilimanjaro. The glacier is almost gone. Global warming, right?
>> Nope. Changes in land use at the base of the mountain, primarily the
>> destruction of the forest for fuel wood, have altered the microclimate
>> around the mountain. Snow no longer falls in the same amounts on the
>> mountain and the glacier is shrinking. This one small example of
>> glaciers and pictures is great proof that pictures do not tell the whole
>> story...they do not tell us what was, nor do they tell us why.
>>
>> Greenpeace is not an environmental organization. One of the founders of
>> Greenpeace (and now a "forest industry schill") has stated that
>> Greenpeace has been highjacked by radical socialists--which is why he
>> left the organization. Greenpeace cannot be trusted for accurate
>> information or reasonable discussion.
>>
>> Realclimate has the express purpose to obfuscate the discussion. They
>> do not allow debate of real science issues and do a lot of handwaving to
>> deal with difficult issues. There is proof that realclimate censors
>> those who don't toe the party line.
>>
>> But attacking the organization does nothing to prove or disprove the
>> science. The science behind anthropogenic global warming is not
>> settled--not even close. I'll accept science. I won't accept Al Gore's
>> stupid power-point presentation turned into propagandistic movie.
>>
>> I've spent LOTS of time actually researching the issue. I've read the
>> papers, looked at the numbers and learned more about statistics than I
>> ever thought I would. This isn't because I'm listening to Rush Limbaugh
>> or following some right-wing blogs. This is from looking at the actual
>> science and forming an educated opinion.
>>
>> You're doing what everyone else who has a skeptical view...either
>> appealing to consensus or ad hominem attacks, but logical fallacies. If
>> you want to debate the specifics--let's go. Fire something over the bow.
>
> I suppose what humans want to do with what they have, or *think* they
> have, discovered, through their scientific methods (whether
> rigourously, consciensiously or effectively applied/interpreted/
> communicated or not) is up to them.
>
> Of course there are other issues of concern, beyond just global
> warming, that are ostensibly related to human activity, and might do
> well to be part of the debate on human activity, which they often are.
>
> Frankly, I may be more inclined to give more, say, interpretive
> weight, to the validity of what a scientist in the subject-in-
> question's field and lab might tell me, over what an ostensible
> developer (yikes! ;) on alt.arch (or his quoted journalist) might. :)
>
> I just seems to make sense, especially if one wants to survive, or at
> least live comfortably, to "scale, proportion and/or choreograph,
> etc." one's lifestyle to one which may be more in keeping with the
> apparent constraints/scale/style of one's own home. It's no good if
> you're parking your car in the bedroom, or the toilet is the sink in
> the kitchen.
>
> The dinosaurs didn't survive, and while humans are small in
> comparison, their activity is far bigger, and their meterorite may be
> of their own making.
>
> Here's an (appropriately) unfinished poem, entitled "Stepping Stones",
> that I began back in 1991:
>
> We won.
> Stepping on them now.
> Wrecklessly;
> The stones in our
> Crossing of a shallow, fast-moving river.
>
> With many a careless step, some
> Fragile stones are crushed beneath
> Stumbling footwork;
> Fossils to study at a later date
> Lessons of failure
>
> Dinosaurs.
> Their descendants might have had
> Our abused privileges
> The river grows wider, the stones fewer and far between
> As our worried feet get wetter
>
> Will we create our own stepping stones?
> Or fall in, to join the thunder-lizards of our making?
>
> Or become the stones, themselves
> Stepped upon by our own mistakes
>
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