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Posted by Edgar on July 19, 2007, 7:01 pm
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Michael Bulatovich"> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> After smoking one too many dubes, Freeman Dyson wrote an article
>>>>>>>>>> by in NYROB: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20370
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From that article:
>>>>>>>>> Rules and regulations will be needed.......
>>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's just no getting away from it, the very thing that stifles
>>>>>>>>> freedom, creativity and advancement.
>>>>>>>>> <sigh>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's just no getting away from some individual and group
>>>>>>>> irresponsibility, recklessness or accidents, etc., that
>>>>>>>> necessitates the very thing that some people say stifles creativity
>>>>>>>> and advancement. <sigh>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And even with all the rules and regulations you will STILL have what
>>>>>>> you described but with the added stifling of freedom, creativity and
>>>>>>> advancement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then we come to this dead end in the middle of the street:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those who want all the free-for-all creativity they can bluster can
>>>>>>>> take a Virgin Spacecraft and go find their own planets on which
>>>>>>>> experiment to their hearts content.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>> I, and many, many others will continue to do eaxactly what I (we)
>>>>>>> want to do and everyone else, especially those that squeal about
>>>>>>> leaving, can go straight to hell where everyone else will be exactly
>>>>>>> like them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you don't have the ballz for complete freedom then it is YOU that
>>>>>>> should find a new haven more conducive to the enslavement you
>>>>>>> prefer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like always with freedom comes responsibility, there is no such thing
>>>>>> as complete freedom, except in your head.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't get to link arbitrary stuff to the word freedom without
>>>>> undermining your claim.
>>>>> The word stands alone.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am going to try to use a real world example rather than going off
>>>> about your neighbors having a tank or some such thing. Recently a
>>>> famous football player was allegedly caught and arrested for using dogs
>>>> in fights, of which most of these dogs were either mauled to death or
>>>> killed after the fact either because the dog was useless or just for
>>>> the fun of it. All of this as of right now is alleged, but you being
>>>> the animal lover I know you are, do you think he has the "complete
>>>> freedom" to do these things to animals?
>>>
>>> You're misusing the word freedom.
>>>
>>
>> No I'm not.
>>
>>>> He owns the dogs, the others who joined him own their dogs, if they
>>>> have complete freedom they should be able to do with them what they
>>>> like right? Or is there some responsibility to the animal?
>>>
>>> Apparently the political/judicial body has applied some accountability
>>> to what you've described (Vicks).
>>> I have nothing to do with it and don't see any connection with the word
>>> freedom at all.
>>> As far as I can tell nonsentient creatures have no rights, nor are they
>>> capable of claiming any.
>>>
>>
>> So basically you don't care either way, as long as you're free he can let
>> dogs maul and kill other dogs for sport, as long as it doesn't harm you.
>>
>>>
>>> Of course some dogs are bred
>>>> for hunting and thus are predators who probably shouldn't be used as
>>>> pets, but we're talking about pure fighting for the purposes of
>>>> betting.
>>>
>>> FWIW: I see very little distinction between a person killing a dog,
>>> regardless of manner, and killing a steer.
>>> Both are personal property.
>>>
>>
>> Granted, killing for food is one thing, killing for sport or fun is
>> another, but to you they are the same. Fine, I disagree.
>>
>>>> I would like to think there is some responsibility to the animals,
>>>> whether you own them or not, and someone should be able to remove them
>>>> from your possession (steal them if you want to go on thinking that
>>>> way) if you are torturing them and using them for such things.
>>>
>>> I wonder what it is that when certain subjects are broached alot of
>>> people instantly try to find the most heinous of human behavior to throw
>>> at it?
>>
>> I wonder what it is that when certain subjects are broached alot of
>> people
>> instantly try to find the most heinous of governmental behavior to throw
>> at it?
>>
>> Yes good question, why do people do that????
>>
>>> Here's what I call freedom Edgar.
>>> The right to tread anywhere on this planet that I choose and harm no one
>>> in the process.
>>> Now you can read responsibility in there anywhere you want, but its
>>> completely irrelevent.
>>>
>>
>> So you wouldn't mind me walking on your property as long as I don't harm
>> you then right?
>
> You?
> No problem.
>
> Look, about that dog reference.
> Hardly anybody loves dogs more than I.
> Since 2000, 1 year after my favoritist dog in the world died, I have been
> donating $1000 worth of dog and cat food and cat litter to the local
> Humane Society on his behalf.
> It really grates my ass when I see people abusing their animals and it
> irks me something fierce that the guy across the road leaves his 4 dogs in
> cages outside 24/7 even during the winter.
> But guess what?
> They are his and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
> I suppose I could go over there and offer him $500 for each dog and bring
> them home and take care of them, but where will it end?
> We already have 2 dogs and 5 cats that other people didn't want and we
> only have so much space.
> ( I have mentioned to friends that if I ever hit a BIG lottery I'd buy
> Kansas and fence the whole thing in and hire 10,000 people to take care of
> all the unwanted dogs and cats in the world)
>
> It also bothers me when I see stuff on the Learning Channel where in china
> they eat dogs and in other parts of the world where dogs and cats are
> abused.
> I can't help it, its the way I was raised plus my exposure to american
> convention, to have emotions regarding animals.
> Sometimes I wish I was a cold blooded bastard and didn't care.
>
> Back to Vicks.
> The dogs were his property, just like a toaster, to do with as he pleases.
> You and I don't have to like it, but we do have to accept it.
> Now, as it turns out, the social conventions in his area dictates that
> what he did was a crime and he'll pay a penalty.
> But the underlying reason as to why he did that will remain.
> Maybe next time he'll set up his fighting arena in an area where it is
> less likely to be discovered.
>
> BTW: Have you ever seen full fledged fighting style Pit Bulls?
> I have, once, and I'll tell you right now they bear little resemblence to
> the cuddily family dogs we are used to.
> They are wild dangerous animals in the same category as wolves or worse.
>
> One last thing.
> Feral dogs and dogs in the wild (Dingo's for example) are much like the
> fighting dogs, but maybe worse, and if you saw them fighting amongst
> themselves or other groups of dogs who would you hold responsible for such
> a thing?
>
> I draw a distinct line in the sand regarding rights.
> Between People, and non-People.
> Dogs and all other things fall into the 2nd group.
> Only the first group, People, can have and argue for rights and freedom.
> All other things are property.
>
Fairy nuff, I will agree to disagree.
Still on the same subject, in another forum a guy I know there was working
in his office when he looked out and saw a dog locked in a car with the
windows barely open, in the sweltering heat. He called someone to have the
dogs released from their deadly chamber, and they did something to him (I
can't remember what at the moment, either a fine or took his dogs or
something) which caused him to get pissed at my friend who called it in.
The dogs could have easily died in there, and I personally felt he was right
to call someone to take care of it, and punish the guy for doing it. I
would call someone about my neighbor if he were having dog fights in his
back yard.
As an aside, I heard another story about some idiotic couple who took a
kitten and tied him onto a set of railroad tracks, such that it would be
split in two when the train came buy. Someone saw them do it, and attempted
to confront them about it, and the couple came back with a shotgun and the
guy just backed off. The guy saved the kitten, but that really truly hurt
me inside to hear something like that, the mind boggles how someone could do
such a thing. It is impossible for me to imagine a world where I would just
say, "oh well, they can do what they like with it".
--
Edgar
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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