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Posted by aemeijers on March 24, 2007, 9:34 am
>> I honestly don't know alot beyond general house repairs and
>> construction, plus what I've read in Handyman Magazine and seen on
>> television, but I'd like to think if I spent the time it'll take to
>> pay off/down the properly I can self-educate myself to contract the
>> house myself and save some money... plus possibly get involved in
>> building the house to some degree to cut corners.
>>
>> Is this common to do or maybe majorly not suggested?
>
> This is not quite what you wanted, but sort of on the same direction.
> At this custom house builder:
>
> <http://www.armstrong-homes.com/customhomes/index.html>
>
> they have a program that might appeal to you.
(Snip)
Sounds like the old shell-home concept, except with modular units.
I grew up in the business, have a fair grasp of most of the trades, and I
wouldn't try to be GC on my own place. Maybe if I was retired and had time
to be on the site every day, and be available to be on-call when questions
and problems arise. The objections everyone else raised are quite valid- all
the subs will consider an owner-builder their lowest scheduling priority,
and be very wary about dealing with someone clueless. So, yeah, it's
possible to do what OP proposed, but it will likely take longer, and not
save very much. And expect to have a real hard time getting financing, since
most banks consider owner-built a high-risk loan. A painfully high per
centage end up being walk-aways or require lots of fixing to pass
inspection.
(I lump owner-as-GC in with owner-built, since almost everyone has to sub
some stuff out.)
But if OP isn't in a hurry, and can self-finanace- what the hell, go for it.
It'll be an educational adventure.
aem sends....
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Posted by Tim Smith on March 24, 2007, 3:47 pm
> > This is not quite what you wanted, but sort of on the same direction.
> > At this custom house builder:
> >
> > <http://www.armstrong-homes.com/customhomes/index.html>
> >
> > they have a program that might appeal to you.
> (Snip)
> Sounds like the old shell-home concept, except with modular units.
I'm not sure what the distinction is, but they seem to consider
themselves different from modular units:
Q: Is it a modular? Manufactured?? Mobile???
NO, NO and NO!!! Armstrong is a complete custom home builder. That
means everything is CUSTOM! The ArmSystem utilizes the Off-Site
Construction Method. With our Off-Site method, the walls are
assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
rain. But with our ArmSystem.
(I hope the people who build their houses are better than the people who
build their website. That last sentence fragment is from their site,
not an error in my transcription).
--
--Tim Smith
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Posted by Rick Blaine on March 24, 2007, 5:51 pm
>With our Off-Site method, the walls are
> assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
> difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
> from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
> rain.
We have an outfit nearby that does something similar. They prebuild all the
frame walls in a large building, stage the entire building in an empty field
nextdoor and truck it out to the site. I would think actual site construction is
just a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks for typical framing.
That obviously means the framing plan needs to be good, but I suspect the
overall cost isn't that much more. Material delivery is about the same, labor is
the same or less. Quality can be better in a factory than on site.
They typically have a dozen or more buildings being staged, so buisness must be
good.
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Posted by marson on March 24, 2007, 7:53 pm
> >With our Off-Site method, the walls are
> > assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
> > difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
> > from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
> > rain.
>
> We have an outfit nearby that does something similar. They prebuild all the
> frame walls in a large building, stage the entire building in an empty field
> nextdoor and truck it out to the site. I would think actual site construction
is
> just a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks for typical framing.
>
> That obviously means the framing plan needs to be good, but I suspect the
> overall cost isn't that much more. Material delivery is about the same, labor
is
> the same or less. Quality can be better in a factory than on site.
>
> They typically have a dozen or more buildings being staged, so buisness must be
> good.
I have endured more than one sales pitch for panelized building. It
have seen other builders (usually commercial) using them, and one day
I'd like to try them. But I'm still a skeptic. Basically, what you
are saving yourself is the wall building, which as a percentage of
time spent on a project is very small. You still have to set trusses,
run subfascia, sheath the roof, etc. Although you can frame a
building somewhat faster, the cost savings are offset by needing to
have several days worth of crane time (big crane too, probably going
for 200 bucks an hour) and needing to truck the panels to the site
(you have to ship a lot of air with the panels, so a lumber pack which
would fit on one truck is going to take several). I don't believe the
malarky about them being more square and straight...the builders I
talk to who have used them have more swoops in their walls than
conventionally framed houses. When my crew frames a wall, it will be
within an 1/8th or usually less of square--I haven't checked prefab
panels, but it's hard to see the advantage in quality. Provided you
have decent carpenters, the quality of your walls is going to depend
on the quality of the lumber, and we're all in the same boat there.
I'll bet you the panellized outfits aren't going through and picking
the straight studs out of a unit. then you have the problem of
fitting the house to the foundation. Pretty common for the masons to
get things out of whack, especially when dealing with stepped footings
which are common where I live. If your foundation measures, say 36-1,
and the panels are 36, what do you do? Fix it, sure, but there goes
yet more of your labor savings.
There were a couple of projects going up next door to my projects last
summer, built of panels by a company who had earlier given me a hard
sell. That was quite entertaining to watch--took longer to frame
their projects than my conventionally framed houses. There is a very
good reason why sheathing should not be put on the rafters before
they are set! They gave the sawzall a workout more than once. Plus
the lumber pack was provided by the panel company, and guess what!
they were short of vital roof framing material! Some mornings you'd
show up and listen to the foreman bitch about waiting for a load of
panels. I suppose it's best not to judge every panel company by that
bunch of jokers, though. Panel building has been around for a long
time, and time will tell whether it's the way to go or not. But
framing a house is really a pretty small part of the whole process,
and although it sounds good in a sales pitch, a house is a hell of a
lot more than framing.
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Posted by aemeijers on March 24, 2007, 9:58 pm
>> >With our Off-Site method, the walls are
>> > assembled into sectional panels just like the On-Site method But the
>> > difference is, with On-Site, the weather and site conditions vary
>> > from day to day causing the walls to be out-of-square and exposed to
>> > rain.
>>
>> We have an outfit nearby that does something similar. They prebuild all
>> the
>> frame walls in a large building, stage the entire building in an empty
>> field
>> nextdoor and truck it out to the site. I would think actual site
>> construction is
>> just a couple of days rather than a couple of weeks for typical framing.
>>
>> That obviously means the framing plan needs to be good, but I suspect the
>> overall cost isn't that much more. Material delivery is about the same,
>> labor is
>> the same or less. Quality can be better in a factory than on site.
>>
>> They typically have a dozen or more buildings being staged, so buisness
>> must be
>> good.
>
> I have endured more than one sales pitch for panelized building. It
> have seen other builders (usually commercial) using them, and one day
> I'd like to try them. But I'm still a skeptic. Basically, what you
> are saving yourself is the wall building, which as a percentage of
> time spent on a project is very small. You still have to set trusses,
> run subfascia, sheath the roof, etc. Although you can frame a
(snip)
and time will tell whether it's the way to go or not. But
> framing a house is really a pretty small part of the whole process,
> and although it sounds good in a sales pitch, a house is a hell of a
> lot more than framing.
>
As a kid in Indiana 30-some years ago, when <lots> of big apartment
complexes were going up, a few of them tried the prefab panels. Seems like
an ideal app- 300 to 600 repeats of same basic floor plan. But since even a
short wall gets heavy fast once skin goes on, on a 3-story 4-entrance
apartment building, you end up having to fly them all in with a crane. I
guess they found crane time cost more than carpernter time, becaise within a
few years I never saw it again.
A prefab panel system I might be inclined to ponder would be those foamcore
SIP panels, like they showed on TOH a couple of times. You can't make those
on site.
aem sends....
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