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Posted by NuWaveDave on January 23, 2007, 10:58 am
> Toms River is pikers compared to Garfield in Bergen County.We have
> janitors making > 100K.
> Plus we got 2 new schools built by the state using your tax dollars. No
> parking for the teachers so now they clog the local streets and parents
> dropping their children off. Of course our school taxes are going up by
> 25% to run the schools.
> Theyy are nice looking buildings. It's a shame the builders go out of
> business right after they are built so someone else has to correct the
> problems.
This sounds like one of those "white-flight" scenarios where affluent,
trendy yuppies flee to semi-rural developments in their Mercedes and BMW
SUVs and bring their high-dollar, trendy tastes with them.
Affluent, trendy yuppies wanting bragging rights for their affluent,
trendy kids?
--
NuWave Dave
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Posted by The Other Funk on January 23, 2007, 1:42 pm
Finding the keyboard operational
NuWaveDave entered:
>> Toms River is pikers compared to Garfield in Bergen County.We have
>> janitors making > 100K.
>> Plus we got 2 new schools built by the state using your tax dollars.
>> No parking for the teachers so now they clog the local streets and
>> parents dropping their children off. Of course our school taxes are
>> going up by 25% to run the schools.
>> Theyy are nice looking buildings. It's a shame the builders go out of
>> business right after they are built so someone else has to correct
>> the problems.
>
> This sounds like one of those "white-flight" scenarios where affluent,
> trendy yuppies flee to semi-rural developments in their Mercedes and
> BMW SUVs and bring their high-dollar, trendy tastes with them.
> Affluent, trendy yuppies wanting bragging rights for their
> affluent, trendy kids?
Quite the opposite. Mostly lower income families pushing out the middle
class.
The school system was/is so bad that <50% passed the standarized tests and >
50% are ESL. The state has taken over the school board to stop them from
some of the more ridiculous spending like a 4 day all expense paid trip to
Atlantic City with spouses.
The new schools are replacing very old buildings. Like Lincoln school which
was renamed when Lincoln died.
No I am not kidding about the above.
Bob
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--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com
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Posted by Michael Bulatovich on January 23, 2007, 9:41 am
>
>> > LouWhat's your connection to the project?
> I'm one of the 70% of the taxpayers who are saying no. On the other
> hand we do need anothe building.
>> Has the design been approved?
> Only by the school board. Thay may sound final, but.......
>> Who's decision is it?
> Referendum votes.
>> Have cost estimates been prepared?
> No, this is a sore subject. Only a ballpark figure from one contractor.
> The school board refuses to send it out to bid.
How can you vote on it if you don't know what it caosts?
>> What's the budget?
> 45,000,000 Also a sore subject seeing how residential, industrial, and
> commercial builder can build the same square footage for half the
> price. But since it's tax money the price goes up.
Sounds like a big school.
>> What's the building made of?
> Block and brick
That's typical, but I meant the spanning system...floors and roof. (You
brought it up.)
>> How big is it?
> That, I'll have to get back to you on.
>>
>> You may not like the design, (it could be genuinely awful) but
>> without more
>> info, that could be totally irrelevant.
> Actually the design is award winning. It is full of wasted floor space,
> unbelievable distances from the shared facilities an
> very scary lengths for fire drills. It looks good but...
Award-winning doesn't mean squat. It probably means that it is less than the
most efficient thing. You sound like you have a political problem larger
than your architectural one. Public buildings are generally built to a
higher standards than private ones, but that doesn't mean they have to be
extravagant.
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
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Posted by hawgeye on January 23, 2007, 9:53 am
"Lou" wrote ...
> Ok, anyone here have experience with school construction? Our school
> district is asking for a ton of money to build
> the most abstract design of a school you have ever seen. We are a small
> community and this could bankrupt the town. However, we do need more
> space. I'm looking for a place to find out what the rules in school
> construction might be. One big "for instance" would be,,,, Can a school
> be built from the same kind of steel truss buildings that those huge
> airplane hangers are constructed from? These hangers seem to stay
> standing. Also I see quite a few other building being built and looking
> rather good from these steel truss buildings. Has anyone been involved
> in this kind of construction?
Given the questions asked by MB and the answers you provided, I see that you
are mostly concerned about getting this done as cheaply as possible. Which
is an honest concern for a citizen that who's property taxes are paying for
it. Although I think you lack some info on how the process works.
Typically in the US, most public school projects fall under the states
jurisdiction which also may have some federal assistance. The design firm
should have had a budget and design criteria going into the project so that
$45 mil, may or may not be a realistic number. Especially if it comes from
just one contractor.
Usually, once the design is made based on the budget and criteria, the
school board will ask for the money from the state. Bonds are usually sold
along with state and federal funds that pay for the project. A thing to
keep in mind is that these bonds may have a life of 20-30 years. In other
words, that $45 mil doesn't come out of your pocket all at once.
Since this is a public owned facility, many bids will be accepted before a
contractor is approved, so that $45mil may be way off.
About the design, you have to keep in mind that since those bonds will have
a long life, the building must at least out live the life of the bond.
There are other factors as well, fire resistance, expected growth of the
population, etc.
In a nut shell, if you are really concerned about this, go to the school
board meetings, ask questions, and provide you concerns. And by all means
don't base your opinions on barber-shop chit-chat.
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Posted by Lou on January 23, 2007, 11:48 am
Given the questions asked by MB and the answers you provided, I see
that you
> are mostly concerned about getting this done as cheaply as possible.
Actually, cheap has nothing to do with it, I'm more
concerned with waste.
Although I think you lack some info on how the process works.
I'm sure that I do lack info on the process but so far
everything that I have been learning
is the opposite of what is being done.
> Typically in the US, most public school projects fall under the states
> jurisdiction which also may have some federal assistance. The design firm
> should have had a budget and design criteria going into the project so that
> $45 mil, may or may not be a realistic number. Especially if it comes from
> just one contractor.
I agree, but with this one, a number was pick out of a hat
from, of all people, the architecht.
by the way, he gets a 2.5m bonus upon completion.
> Usually, once the design is made based on the budget and criteria, the
> school board will ask for the money from the state. Bonds are usually sold
> along with state and federal funds that pay for the project. A thing to
> keep in mind is that these bonds may have a life of 20-30 years. In other
> words, that $45 mil doesn't come out of your pocket all at once.
> Since this is a public owned facility, many bids will be accepted before a
> contractor is approved, so that $45mil may be way off.
I also agree, but the school board and the school
officials have not asked the state
They have gone straight to the public with the blurb
"don't you care about the kids?"
> About the design, you have to keep in mind that since those bonds will have
> a long life, the building must at least out live the life of the bond.
> There are other factors as well, fire resistance, expected growth of the
> population, etc.
Again, agreed. The building was designed to only accomodate the
current overcrowding
along with the anticipated next 3 years growth. In other words
it will be to capacity by the time it is completed.
> In a nut shell, if you are really concerned about this, go to the school
> board meetings, ask questions, and provide you concerns. And by all means
> don't base your opinions on barber-shop chit-chat.
I go to every meeting, take notes and ask questions. These
are not bright people but they have one thing
I don't, money to get there cause out, I can't even get a
newspaper reporter to attend.
Lou
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