Concrete driveway issue Any concrete experts?

Posted by Roscoe P Pendoscoe on March 15, 2008, 9:48 am

Last September/October I had a new 40x60' pad in front of my garage
poured along with a 45x4' sidewalk from the house to the garage. This
company also did a 250' asphalt turnaround. (I couldn't afford all
concrete)

Anyway, I will dispense initially with all the issues I had with these
guys trying to get them to finish it properly at the end because it is
a bit long.

Here in Minnesota the ice had just melted on the concrete pad as the
fellow who plowed lost his Ford truck in a garage fire. I only cleared
areas where we walked and I parked my service truck (Iam an
electrician) Anyhow, this past Wednesday it had all melted and was
gone so I thought I'd get the broom out and sweep the debris off at
least and tidy it up a bit.

Well kiss my ass, now there are pits (quarter size) and along some of
the joints it has disintegrated and crumbled completely and where the
pits are seem that the concrete let go where large aggregate is under.

With all the crap I put up with and the threats I got from the
salesman when I held back a portion of the final money due until they
cleaned the HYDRAULIC FLUID that leaked onto 2 day old poured concrete
from the rollers they parked when they did the asphalt part. There
were 2 large puddles the size of a 5 gallon bucket and dozens of
others where they backed onto it each time while using the rollers on
the asphalt. Quarter sized drops, evenly spaced again from the
rollers.

They never did return to clean it so I did it myself and they also
never sealed it. I finally got them to give me the sealant and I would
do it myself. 2 gallons they left me for a pad and sidewalk the size
I previously mentioned. I ended up buying 3 more and it was pretty
close to not enough. Now about that 2nd coat...........

They deducted $500 from almost $14K bill for the hydraulic fluid leak
and not sealing it. I just wanted it over with. This jerk, the owner
in fact said "he'd be happy to accept $500 for a little oil on a
driveway that's going to get oil on it anyway, it's a driveway"

Get the drift of the mentality of what I went through?

Now this disintegration of the pad.I am afraid I am in for a big
fight. Might even get a little physical since they were good at
threats before. Seriously.

Anyway, did the fluid create what I am seeing now, or is it from not
sealing it for a month or perhaps not properly.?

Any replies of info appreciated,

Roscoe aka Rick

Knowledge is like money, the less you talk about it
the more people assume you have.

Posted by dpb on March 15, 2008, 9:24 am

Roscoe P Pendoscoe wrote:

> Last September/October I had a new 40x60' pad in front of my garage
> poured along with a 45x4' sidewalk from the house to the garage. This

...

> Well kiss my ass, now there are pits (quarter size) and along some of
> the joints it has disintegrated and crumbled completely and where the
> pits are seem that the concrete let go where large aggregate is under.

...

Question:

Why do concrete surfaces flake and spall?

Answer:

Concrete surfaces can flake or spall for one or more of the following
reasons:

•In areas of the country that are subjected to freezing and thawing the
concrete should be air-entrained to resist flaking and scaling of the
surface. If air-entrained concrete is not used, there will be subsequent
damage to the surface.

•The water/cement ratio should be as low as possible to improve
durability of the surface. Too much water in the mix will produce a
weaker, less durable concrete that will contribute to early flaking and
spalling of the surface.

•The finishing operations should not begin until the water sheen on the
surface is gone and excess bleed water on the surface has had a chance
to evaporate. If this excess water is worked into the concrete because
the finishing operations are begun too soon, the concrete on the surface
will have too high a water content and will be weaker and less durable.

Question and answer courtesy of Portland Cement Association (PCA). More
information is available at: http://www.cement.org/tech/cct_faqs.asp.

Add to the above salt and/or other deicers can exacerbate the problems...

--

Posted by jloomis on March 15, 2008, 9:37 am

I am not sure if I hear this right.....

Parking a Heavy Duty Asphalt Roller on 2 day old concrete?
It takes 30 days.....= - under water......to cure concrete properly.

If the roller did roll on the concrete it hit aggregate and the soft
concrete on top was compromised.
Near the control joints similar.....

Another scenario is improper concrete mix and or too much water.
If the concrete sat in the truck for some time, and the men added water,
concrete is less strong.
You can take a core sample and get a test of the concrete for analysis.
Also Good Concrete Companies record the amount of water added.......look at
the reciepts.....
It wont tell how much the men used after the truck left though.....
Sometimes if it is hot, and the concrete is going off too fast the men wet
the surface and trowel the finish.
Another problem encountered is covering concrete with plastic after pouring.
I have seen water accumulate under the plastic and errode the fresh
concrete......

Anyway, a test is in order to proceed with a claim.
Parking on fresh concrete is (no...no)
jloomis concrete and construction

> Last September/October I had a new 40x60' pad in front of my garage
> poured along with a 45x4' sidewalk from the house to the garage. This
> company also did a 250' asphalt turnaround. (I couldn't afford all
> concrete)
> Anyway, I will dispense initially with all the issues I had with these
> guys trying to get them to finish it properly at the end because it is
> a bit long.
> Here in Minnesota the ice had just melted on the concrete pad as the
> fellow who plowed lost his Ford truck in a garage fire. I only cleared
> areas where we walked and I parked my service truck (Iam an
> electrician) Anyhow, this past Wednesday it had all melted and was
> gone so I thought I'd get the broom out and sweep the debris off at
> least and tidy it up a bit.
> Well kiss my ass, now there are pits (quarter size) and along some of
> the joints it has disintegrated and crumbled completely and where the
> pits are seem that the concrete let go where large aggregate is under.
> With all the crap I put up with and the threats I got from the
> salesman when I held back a portion of the final money due until they
> cleaned the HYDRAULIC FLUID that leaked onto 2 day old poured concrete
> from the rollers they parked when they did the asphalt part. There
> were 2 large puddles the size of a 5 gallon bucket and dozens of
> others where they backed onto it each time while using the rollers on
> the asphalt. Quarter sized drops, evenly spaced again from the
> rollers.
> They never did return to clean it so I did it myself and they also
> never sealed it. I finally got them to give me the sealant and I would
> do it myself. 2 gallons they left me for a pad and sidewalk the size
> I previously mentioned. I ended up buying 3 more and it was pretty
> close to not enough. Now about that 2nd coat...........
> They deducted $500 from almost $14K bill for the hydraulic fluid leak
> and not sealing it. I just wanted it over with. This jerk, the owner
> in fact said "he'd be happy to accept $500 for a little oil on a
> driveway that's going to get oil on it anyway, it's a driveway"
> Get the drift of the mentality of what I went through?
> Now this disintegration of the pad.I am afraid I am in for a big
> fight. Might even get a little physical since they were good at
> threats before. Seriously.
> Anyway, did the fluid create what I am seeing now, or is it from not
> sealing it for a month or perhaps not properly.?
> Any replies of info appreciated,
> Roscoe aka Rick
> Knowledge is like money, the less you talk about it
> the more people assume you have.

Posted by dpb on March 15, 2008, 10:40 am

jloomis wrote:

> I am not sure if I hear this right.....
>
> Parking a Heavy Duty Asphalt Roller on 2 day old concrete?

...

Good catch! W/ all the bluster contained in the post I read right over
that part. I'd have expected much worse than some spalling after that...

--

Posted by Roscoe P Pendoscoe on March 15, 2008, 12:09 pm

wrote:

>I am not sure if I hear this right.....
>Parking a Heavy Duty Asphalt Roller on 2 day old concrete?
>It takes 30 days.....= - under water......to cure concrete properly.
>If the roller did roll on the concrete it hit aggregate and the soft
>concrete on top was compromised.
>Near the control joints similar.....
>Another scenario is improper concrete mix and or too much water.
>If the concrete sat in the truck for some time, and the men added water,
>concrete is less strong.
>You can take a core sample and get a test of the concrete for analysis.
>Also Good Concrete Companies record the amount of water added.......look at
>the reciepts.....
>It wont tell how much the men used after the truck left though.....
>Sometimes if it is hot, and the concrete is going off too fast the men wet
>the surface and trowel the finish.
>Another problem encountered is covering concrete with plastic after pouring.
>I have seen water accumulate under the plastic and errode the fresh
>concrete......
>Anyway, a test is in order to proceed with a claim.
>Parking on fresh concrete is (no...no)
>jloomis concrete and construction

snipped my original...

Thanks so much for the quick and informative answers.

BTW, I chose this company because they did a job just down the street
about 8 house down. A brand new one with a 4 car garage.

They did it in 2 pours it appeared. Anyway, about 4-5 days after the
2nd pour, I saw that it was all jack-hammered up and then the next day
hauled away. A new pour in about 3-4 days later was then seen.

Well since I needed a concrete contractor and something seemed amiss
in this instance and it seemed like they addressed it in a very quick
way I went and asked the homeowner what had happened.

Seems there was something left in that truck from the previous day
that made the concrete/cement that was newly loaded then poured, have
an issue which all parties agreed was unacceptable.

Well I thought, hey now, here's a company who doesn't waste time
fixing wrongs and not a cheap or easy fix, and wants happy customers.
I know all about this as I am a contractor in a different field and
keeping customers pleased and happy is a major goal for referrals and
callbacks for other jobs.

They also have their own plant and asphalt included. I thought I then
would only need to deal with one contractor making this a bit easier.

In the end, it just may appear they do crappy, cheap and shoddy work
and the fellow down the block caught some issue that was more
pronounced than my delayed problem.

Before calling them, I have already left a message with an attorney
who is my Daughters Mother-in-law who happens to be doing an extensive
remodel which I had originally turned down as I was so busy. I think I
will make time for her and see what I can get barter-wise. Typically
barter does not work because I do my part and it's like pulling teeth
to get the other craft to do their part.

I let you folks know what happens so you can watch for the problems I
have and will certainly run into.

Thanks again!

Roscoe aka Rick aka MrShade

Knowledge is like money, the less you talk about it
the more people assume you have.

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