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Posted by salty on May 18, 2008, 8:45 pm
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>Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>> salty@dog.com said something like:
>>
>> ...[snip]...
>>
>>
>>> The concrete in steel lolly columns is to help keep them from
>>> collapsing in a fire.
>>
>> ....so the preventing a dent thing is secondary, or not a concern...?
>>
>>
>No, preventing buckling is a significant advantage provided by filling a
>steel column.
>Matt
Uh, yes. And the buckling it prevents would be the result of fire. Filling the
columns with cement is to protect the columns from buckling in a FIRE.
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Posted by RicodJour on May 19, 2008, 1:25 am
On May 18, 8:45 pm, sa...@dog.com wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> >Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
> >> sa...@dog.com said something like:
> >>> The concrete in steel lolly columns is to help keep them from
> >>> collapsing in a fire.
> >> ....so the preventing a dent thing is secondary, or not a concern...?
> >No, preventing buckling is a significant advantage provided by filling a
> >steel column.
> Uh, yes. And the buckling it prevents would be the result of fire. Filling the
> columns with cement is to protect the columns from buckling in a FIRE.
In a wood framed building? I guess if the fire started at the base of
the column that might be a good argument, but in any real situation
the house would be engulfed in flames long before the plastic
temperature of the steel was reached.
The concrete fill is to prevent buckling, partially from being dented,
but also to prevent localized failure which can occur at lower loads
than the straight compressive strength of the material(s) would
indicate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling
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Posted by Thomas G. Marshall on May 19, 2008, 3:36 pm
RicodJour said something like:
show/hide quoted text
> On May 18, 8:45 pm, sa...@dog.com wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>>>> sa...@dog.com said something like:
>>>>> The concrete in steel lolly columns is to help keep them from
>>>>> collapsing in a fire.
>>>> ....so the preventing a dent thing is secondary, or not a
>>>> concern...?
>>> No, preventing buckling is a significant advantage provided by
>>> filling a steel column.
>> Uh, yes. And the buckling it prevents would be the result of fire.
>> Filling the columns with cement is to protect the columns from
>> buckling in a FIRE.
> In a wood framed building? I guess if the fire started at the base of
> the column that might be a good argument, but in any real situation
> the house would be engulfed in flames long before the plastic
> temperature of the steel was reached.
> The concrete fill is to prevent buckling, partially from being dented,
> but also to prevent localized failure which can occur at lower loads
> than the straight compressive strength of the material(s) would
> indicate.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling
This makes sense to me, though I'm hardly as versed in structural analysis
as the other denisins of this ng. Fire seems a concern, though secondary,
only because the plasticity of steel could never be reached in a basement
without the rest of the house already having been reduced to dust. Or so it
seems to me.
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Posted by scrumble on May 21, 2008, 2:45 pm
Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> RicodJour said something like:
>> On May 18, 8:45 pm, sa...@dog.com wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>>>>> sa...@dog.com said something like:
>>>>>> The concrete in steel lolly columns is to help keep them from
>>>>>> collapsing in a fire.
>>>>> ....so the preventing a dent thing is secondary, or not a
>>>>> concern...?
>>>> No, preventing buckling is a significant advantage provided by
>>>> filling a steel column.
>>> Uh, yes. And the buckling it prevents would be the result of fire.
>>> Filling the columns with cement is to protect the columns from
>>> buckling in a FIRE.
>> In a wood framed building? I guess if the fire started at the base of
>> the column that might be a good argument, but in any real situation
>> the house would be engulfed in flames long before the plastic
>> temperature of the steel was reached.
>> The concrete fill is to prevent buckling, partially from being dented,
>> but also to prevent localized failure which can occur at lower loads
>> than the straight compressive strength of the material(s) would
>> indicate.aconcern, though secondary,
> only because the plasticity of steel could never be reached in a basement
> without the rest of the house already having been reduced to dust. Or so it
> seems to me.
The problem with fire and steel beams/columns isn't so much from
structural weakness when the steel becomes hot, although that would be a
concern where the intention is to contain the fire for a length of time,
but more from the actual expansion of the steel, either from it pushing
other structural elements, or itself buckling when the expansion at both
ends is restricted.
--
scrum
(\_/) Procrastinator bunny says:
( . .) "I'll conquer the internets tomorrow"
C(")(")
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Posted by Matt Whiting on May 19, 2008, 6:34 pm
salty@dog.com wrote:
show/hide quoted text
>
>> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>>> salty@dog.com said something like:
>>> ...[snip]...
>>>> The concrete in steel lolly columns is to help keep them from
>>>> collapsing in a fire.
>>> ....so the preventing a dent thing is secondary, or not a concern...?
>> No, preventing buckling is a significant advantage provided by filling a
>> steel column.
>> Matt
>
> Uh, yes. And the buckling it prevents would be the result of fire. Filling the
> columns with cement is to protect the columns from buckling in a FIRE.
It also adds tremendously to normal buckling resistance, not just
buckling resistance due to fire reducing the capacity of the material.
http://www.aisc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Documents/Connections_IV_Proceedings/51.pdf
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>> salty@dog.com said something like:
>>
>> ...[snip]...
>>
>>
>>> The concrete in steel lolly columns is to help keep them from
>>> collapsing in a fire.
>>
>> ....so the preventing a dent thing is secondary, or not a concern...?
>>
>>
>No, preventing buckling is a significant advantage provided by filling a
>steel column.
>Matt