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Posted by Cabot on July 26, 2009, 9:30 pm
> I'm planning a deck for my new house. I think I've got pretty much
> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
> Thanks in advance,
> Bill
I'm guessing you're in the southern part of the states. We have a frostline
of 42", in the part of the Midwest I'm in.
I have no idea where the people which said the lumber has to be above
ground, get their information. With the properly treated lumber such as ACQ
0.40 retention, it is made for ground contact. Here's a couple links, and
the net is full of ground contact lumber. Pole barns are commonly built
this way, along with decks.
http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/photogallery.html
http://www.easybuildings.com/
You don't need a strong tie attachment at all, unless this was specified by
the inspector. I would ask the inspector to clarify the 18" round. That
would take one mighty big auger bit.
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Posted by Grasshopper on July 27, 2009, 10:52 am
>> I'm planning a deck for my new house. I think I've got pretty much
>> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
>> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
>> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
>> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
>> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
>> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
>> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
>> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
>> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
>> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Bill
> I'm guessing you're in the southern part of the states. We have a
> frostline of 42", in the part of the Midwest I'm in.
> I have no idea where the people which said the lumber has to be above
> ground, get their information. With the properly treated lumber such as
> ACQ 0.40 retention, it is made for ground contact. Here's a couple links,
> and the net is full of ground contact lumber. Pole barns are commonly
> built this way, along with decks.
> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/photogallery.html
Look at the bottom photo where you can actually see the supporting 4X4s and
the soil in its vicinity. You will see that the treated lumber is not in
the soil. Its embedded in concrete below the soil line. None of it is
actually contacting soil. At least, not for now. That is common.
The smart, but most laborious way, is to build the piers entirely of
concrete. The piers supporting the beams that hold the deck. All treated
lumber eventually rots.
> http://www.easybuildings.com/
No one said the building method was undoable. Its not long term oriented
though. Common when bulding deck attachments to a home.
> You don't need a strong tie attachment at all, unless this was specified
> by the inspector. I would ask the inspector to clarify the 18" round. That
> would take one mighty big auger bit.
My pier and beam home sits on 24" round footings. Its in central TX. They
used the machine normally used for making holes for utility poles to
drill/cut it out. They flared the bottom of each hole manually.
18" round footings are common for structures that don't bear as much
weight.
--
Dave
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Posted by Cabot on July 27, 2009, 5:06 pm
"Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
>>> I'm planning a deck for my new house. I think I've got pretty much
>>> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
>>> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
>>> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
>>> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
>>> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
>>> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
>>> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
>>> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
>>> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
>>> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> Bill
>> I'm guessing you're in the southern part of the states. We have a
>> frostline of 42", in the part of the Midwest I'm in.
>> I have no idea where the people which said the lumber has to be above
>> ground, get their information. With the properly treated lumber such as
>> ACQ 0.40 retention, it is made for ground contact. Here's a couple
>> links, and the net is full of ground contact lumber. Pole barns are
>> commonly built this way, along with decks.
>> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/photogallery.html
> Look at the bottom photo where you can actually see the supporting 4X4s
> and the soil in its vicinity. You will see that the treated lumber is
> not in the soil. Its embedded in concrete below the soil line. None of
> it is actually contacting soil. At least, not for now. That is common.
> The smart, but most laborious way, is to build the piers entirely of
> concrete. The piers supporting the beams that hold the deck. All
> treated lumber eventually rots.
>> http://www.easybuildings.com/
> No one said the building method was undoable. Its not long term oriented
> though. Common when bulding deck attachments to a home.
>> You don't need a strong tie attachment at all, unless this was specified
>> by the inspector. I would ask the inspector to clarify the 18" round.
>> That would take one mighty big auger bit.
> My pier and beam home sits on 24" round footings. Its in central TX.
> They used the machine normally used for making holes for utility poles to
> drill/cut it out. They flared the bottom of each hole manually.
> 18" round footings are common for structures that don't bear as much
> weight.
I'm sure the inspector said 18", because it's common to go 3x the lumber
size. Since the OP is using 6x6, which is really 5-1/2", the footer for 8"
of concrete should be 16.5".
I have a deck which is 22 yr old, I've seen how long they can last. Exactly
what have you seen over the years, which last?
I read these forums, and people always throw out this solution or this
solution, and have no idea how long something lasts.
Here's a code from MD, which sounds similiar to the OP situation. MD has a
20" frostline, the OP has a 24". We have a 42", and can build like MD code.
http://www.co.saint-marys.md.us/lugm/docs/CAG4.pdf
Now, if you want to argue with someone, I suggest contacting all the states
which allow _properly_ treated wood, _meant_ for ground contact, and tell
them they're wrong.
You're arguing with the wrong person.
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Posted by Grasshopper on July 28, 2009, 11:27 am
> "Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
>>>> I'm planning a deck for my new house. I think I've got pretty much
>>>> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
>>>> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
>>>> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
>>>> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
>>>> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
>>>> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
>>>> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
>>>> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
>>>> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
>>>> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>> Bill
>>> I'm guessing you're in the southern part of the states. We have a
>>> frostline of 42", in the part of the Midwest I'm in.
>>> I have no idea where the people which said the lumber has to be above
>>> ground, get their information. With the properly treated lumber such as
>>> ACQ 0.40 retention, it is made for ground contact. Here's a couple
>>> links, and the net is full of ground contact lumber. Pole barns are
>>> commonly built this way, along with decks.
>>> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/photogallery.html
>> Look at the bottom photo where you can actually see the supporting 4X4s
>> and the soil in its vicinity. You will see that the treated lumber is
>> not in the soil. Its embedded in concrete below the soil line. None of
>> it is actually contacting soil. At least, not for now. That is common.
>> The smart, but most laborious way, is to build the piers entirely of
>> concrete. The piers supporting the beams that hold the deck. All
>> treated lumber eventually rots.
>>> http://www.easybuildings.com/
>> No one said the building method was undoable. Its not long term oriented
>> though. Common when bulding deck attachments to a home.
>>> You don't need a strong tie attachment at all, unless this was specified
>>> by the inspector. I would ask the inspector to clarify the 18" round.
>>> That would take one mighty big auger bit.
>> My pier and beam home sits on 24" round footings. Its in central TX.
>> They used the machine normally used for making holes for utility poles to
>> drill/cut it out. They flared the bottom of each hole manually.
>> 18" round footings are common for structures that don't bear as much
>> weight.
> I'm sure the inspector said 18", because it's common to go 3x the lumber
> size. Since the OP is using 6x6, which is really 5-1/2", the footer for 8"
> of concrete should be 16.5".
> I have a deck which is 22 yr old, I've seen how long they can last.
> Exactly what have you seen over the years, which last?
> I read these forums, and people always throw out this solution or this
> solution, and have no idea how long something lasts.
> Here's a code from MD, which sounds similiar to the OP situation. MD has a
> 20" frostline, the OP has a 24". We have a 42", and can build like MD
> code. http://www.co.saint-marys.md.us/lugm/docs/CAG4.pdf
> Now, if you want to argue with someone, I suggest contacting all the
> states which allow _properly_ treated wood, _meant_ for ground contact,
> and tell them they're wrong.
> You're arguing with the wrong person.
Again, an 18" round hole is common for footings that support less weight
bearing. Personally, I've seen treated lumber deck supports rot in the
ground and eventually, the whole deck fall of the house as result. That's
why I have so much concern in this specific case that the OP is talking
about.
Even the super-duper treated lumber used for pier supports eventually rots.
They're removed and replaced on a regular basis by DOD contractors at Navy
piers.
Regarding contacting states that allow such ground contact lumber, they are
not looking at long term life.
Water contact, and the organisms in that water are what causes wood to rot
including treated lumber. If that can be avoided or appreciably reduced,
treated lumber can be used. Concrete encased treated lumber has a problem
though. Concrete is porous. Commonly observed when having to replace
treated wooden fence posts encased in concrete below the soil line.
I am not arguing. I am stating facts and my observations. I'm not making
an emmotional issue as you imply by "arguing".
--
Dave
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Posted by jloomis on July 28, 2009, 11:35 am
I am in agreemant and rather not argue.
When we get a plan that says the pier footing to be 18" deep, and the
concrete to be at least 8" and the hole to be 24" that is what we follow.
Also in the mix, the wood,(be it pressure treated or #1 rdwd sill grade) is
to be "above grade"....thus the concrete will have to fill the entire hole.
I really do not understand the issue.
I have pulled out of the ground many a "pressure treated" wood post and
boards that were in earth contact and that had wrotted.
For fence post we use a "P" gravel and not embed in concrete.
I beleive the concrete holds the moisture more and many post have snapped at
the concrete line.......
anyway, burying wood be it pressure treated or....whatever, is asking for
future repair.
john
"Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
>> "Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
>>>>> I'm planning a deck for my new house. I think I've got pretty much
>>>>> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
>>>>> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
>>>>> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
>>>>> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
>>>>> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
>>>>> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
>>>>> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
>>>>> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
>>>>> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
>>>>> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>> Bill
>>>> I'm guessing you're in the southern part of the states. We have a
>>>> frostline of 42", in the part of the Midwest I'm in.
>>>> I have no idea where the people which said the lumber has to be above
>>>> ground, get their information. With the properly treated lumber such as
>>>> ACQ 0.40 retention, it is made for ground contact. Here's a couple
>>>> links, and the net is full of ground contact lumber. Pole barns are
>>>> commonly built this way, along with decks.
>>>> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/photogallery.html
>>> Look at the bottom photo where you can actually see the supporting 4X4s
>>> and the soil in its vicinity. You will see that the treated lumber is
>>> not in the soil. Its embedded in concrete below the soil line. None of
>>> it is actually contacting soil. At least, not for now. That is common.
>>> The smart, but most laborious way, is to build the piers entirely of
>>> concrete. The piers supporting the beams that hold the deck. All
>>> treated lumber eventually rots.
>>>> http://www.easybuildings.com/
>>> No one said the building method was undoable. Its not long term
>>> oriented though. Common when bulding deck attachments to a home.
>>>> You don't need a strong tie attachment at all, unless this was
>>>> specified by the inspector. I would ask the inspector to clarify the
>>>> 18" round. That would take one mighty big auger bit.
>>> My pier and beam home sits on 24" round footings. Its in central TX.
>>> They used the machine normally used for making holes for utility poles
>>> to drill/cut it out. They flared the bottom of each hole manually.
>>> 18" round footings are common for structures that don't bear as much
>>> weight.
>> I'm sure the inspector said 18", because it's common to go 3x the lumber
>> size. Since the OP is using 6x6, which is really 5-1/2", the footer for
>> 8" of concrete should be 16.5".
>> I have a deck which is 22 yr old, I've seen how long they can last.
>> Exactly what have you seen over the years, which last?
>> I read these forums, and people always throw out this solution or this
>> solution, and have no idea how long something lasts.
>> Here's a code from MD, which sounds similiar to the OP situation. MD has
>> a 20" frostline, the OP has a 24". We have a 42", and can build like MD
>> code. http://www.co.saint-marys.md.us/lugm/docs/CAG4.pdf
>> Now, if you want to argue with someone, I suggest contacting all the
>> states which allow _properly_ treated wood, _meant_ for ground contact,
>> and tell them they're wrong.
>> You're arguing with the wrong person.
> Again, an 18" round hole is common for footings that support less weight
> bearing. Personally, I've seen treated lumber deck supports rot in the
> ground and eventually, the whole deck fall of the house as result. That's
> why I have so much concern in this specific case that the OP is talking
> about.
> Even the super-duper treated lumber used for pier supports eventually
> rots. They're removed and replaced on a regular basis by DOD contractors
> at Navy piers.
> Regarding contacting states that allow such ground contact lumber, they
> are not looking at long term life.
> Water contact, and the organisms in that water are what causes wood to rot
> including treated lumber. If that can be avoided or appreciably reduced,
> treated lumber can be used. Concrete encased treated lumber has a problem
> though. Concrete is porous. Commonly observed when having to replace
> treated wooden fence posts encased in concrete below the soil line.
> I am not arguing. I am stating facts and my observations. I'm not making
> an emmotional issue as you imply by "arguing".
> --
> Dave
>
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> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
> Thanks in advance,
> Bill