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Posted by Grasshopper on July 29, 2009, 10:36 pm
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> "Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
>> Again, an 18" round hole is common for footings that support less weight
>> bearing. Personally, I've seen treated lumber deck supports rot in the
>> ground and eventually, the whole deck fall of the house as result. That's
>> why I have so much concern in this specific case that the OP is talking
>> about.
> As I asked Loomis, to what degree was the wood treated, he has not
> replied. It's not uncommon for unscruplous contractors to use a lessor
> degree than is required. I too have seen 4x4 treated post rot, but they
> were not for ground contact.
How would I or anyone else know like me know the grade of PT lumber used
after a long period of time in years?
You can say anything on that basis, as you know we don't have one in that
regard. So, that's exactly what you're doing. We can only state our
observations. That, I will continue to do without restraint or owing proof
of some sort that you know we can't substantiate.
But, neither can you prove to me and the rest of the readers of the lifetime
of your deck and supports and so forth. Nor do I question it, as there is
no way you can prove that. Its too bad you don't see the difference in this
perspective....
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>> Even the super-duper treated lumber used for pier supports eventually
>> rots. They're removed and replaced on a regular basis by DOD contractors
>> at Navy piers.
> I work for our State, its not uncommon for government entities to replace
> what doesn't need replaced. If you're not familiar with them not spending
> money, in order to get more money, it would be an eye opener for you.
Navy 20 year + retiree here. The pier supports are visibly rotting at the
time they're normally replaced in reference to what I said before. I won't
comment on federal or state landlubber employees at this time except to say
that you sure sound like one. God help us, my opinion based on observation
of your replies.
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>> Water contact, and the organisms in that water are what causes wood to
>> rot including treated lumber. If that can be avoided or appreciably
>> reduced, treated lumber can be used. Concrete encased treated lumber has
>> a problem though. Concrete is porous. Commonly observed when having to
>> replace treated wooden fence posts encased in concrete below the soil
>> line.
> There are different treatments for water submerged lumber, this is a non
> issue for this case. A side note, treated lumber should never be placed
> in or encased in concrete. Lumber shrinks, long after the concrete cures.
> This is why fences get wobbly.
Uhh, you used a weblink example where a bridge crossing wetlands has its PT
supports in concrete to support your point. And, the concrete terminated
right at soil level. Smells awfully like riding the fence here, my
observation.
Concrete is porous, water leaks by and gets in the wood. The wood gets wet,
etc. etc. etc. Doesn't matter if its PT or not. The organisms enter from
the top of the concrete termination. That's where, PT fence posts for
instance rot/degrade. Doesn't matter if the fence post or support are loose
in the concrete or not, it will happen if near or below the soil line.
Good digression attempt, but not valid.
I am not arguing. I am stating facts and my observations. I'm not making
an emmotional issue as you previously impled by "arguing", reemphasized. Oh
well, you just don't get it, and never will.
--
"All men are created equal"
No one said they weren't different.
No one said they would not disagree.
No one said they would not have different perspectives.
No one said they would all work in harmony.
"We the peope" is a collective of all of these.
Dave
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Posted by Cabot on July 30, 2009, 4:44 pm
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"Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
> How would I or anyone else know like me know the grade of PT lumber used
> after a long period of time in years?
Wow, you really don't get around. Its mandatory in the industry for each
piece of lumber, to have a retention sticker on it. Every retention sticker
I've ever seen is plastic. Its common practice, to put the sticker end in
the ground.
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> You can say anything on that basis, as you know we don't have one in that
> regard. So, that's exactly what you're doing. We can only state our
> observations. That, I will continue to do without restraint or owing
> proof of some sort that you know we can't substantiate.
I provided a link to MD code for _decks_. What more proof do you want? Of
course, the point flew right over your head. Now you bring it up again.
It's substantiated, good grief.
show/hide quoted text
> But, neither can you prove to me and the rest of the readers of the
> lifetime of your deck and supports and so forth. Nor do I question it,
> as there is no way you can prove that. Its too bad you don't see the
> difference in this perspective....
We do piers here, when they are required. You're the one trying to shove a
_Texas_ way of doing things down someones throat.
I never said lifetime, please show where I said lifetime.
You know, guys like you have every episode of This Old House on cd, you
watched a home being built, and now you think you're a know it all. Your
colors were obvious from the beginning.
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Posted by jloomis on July 30, 2009, 9:09 pm
Give me a break....
I do not have to know all the chemical additives in materials at the
hardware and lumber store.
I am not a chemist, I am a builder, and have been one for many years....
Many houses, foundations, you name it.
There are common grades sold, and for garden use, and there are more
advanced grades sold.....PT Fir. I have ordered it special order, cooked
and serated, or plain....I have ordered it clear, #1 fir.
For crying out loud, you act like the God of Pressure treated lumber.......
I can get any grade specified by the plan.
If it is a residential application, the plan will state what grade to use.
If it is a federal or state job, it will specifiy.....I will order
that.......
I have enough information to keep me busy with all the hardware, ditch
depth,
roof pitch, truss delivery, concrete mix.....new fire codes, earthquake,
tempered window, stair riser, bituthane, bitumin, hardy board, hardi
backer....
I give.
With this comment.....I had to let some steam off....
"If you're attempting to pass yourself off as a contractor, you damn well
should know specifications,product knowledge, and the limits of what you
are using.
jloomisconcrete and construction.....building fine homes and many
construction projects...since 1970 .
show/hide quoted text
> "Grasshopper" <NONE> wrote in message
>> How would I or anyone else know like me know the grade of PT lumber used
>> after a long period of time in years?
> Wow, you really don't get around. Its mandatory in the industry for each
> piece of lumber, to have a retention sticker on it. Every retention
> sticker I've ever seen is plastic. Its common practice, to put the sticker
> end in the ground.
>> You can say anything on that basis, as you know we don't have one in that
>> regard. So, that's exactly what you're doing. We can only state our
>> observations. That, I will continue to do without restraint or owing
>> proof of some sort that you know we can't substantiate.
> I provided a link to MD code for _decks_. What more proof do you want? Of
> course, the point flew right over your head. Now you bring it up again.
> It's substantiated, good grief.
>> But, neither can you prove to me and the rest of the readers of the
>> lifetime of your deck and supports and so forth. Nor do I question it,
>> as there is no way you can prove that. Its too bad you don't see the
>> difference in this perspective....
> We do piers here, when they are required. You're the one trying to shove a
> _Texas_ way of doing things down someones throat.
> I never said lifetime, please show where I said lifetime.
> You know, guys like you have every episode of This Old House on cd, you
> watched a home being built, and now you think you're a know it all. Your
> colors were obvious from the beginning.
>
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Posted by jloomis on July 27, 2009, 11:11 am
Not in Calif.
Although we have built several pole barns with treated lumber when it comes
to residential construction, the building dept. requires all wood to have a
ground clearance.
It is only a better way to build.
I have seen treated lumber turn and wrot in the ground.
john
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>> I'm planning a deck for my new house. I think I've got pretty much
>> everything figured out, but I'm concerned about one thing. My county
>> requires 18" round, 24" deep footings with 8" of concrete. If I only
>> use 8" of concrete, the post bases will be 16" down in an 18" hole.
>> There's no room to swing a hammer down there. How can I attach my
>> (6x6) posts to the post bases?
>> I have a couple ideas. Obviously, I could just pour enough concrete
>> to raise the post bases up to the surface. That's a LOT of concrete
>> to mix by hand, but it's not impossible. Another possibility is to
>> use screws instead of nails with a 90 degree drill attachment.
>> Anybody have a better idea? I'd really appreciate it.
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Bill
> I'm guessing you're in the southern part of the states. We have a
> frostline of 42", in the part of the Midwest I'm in.
> I have no idea where the people which said the lumber has to be above
> ground, get their information. With the properly treated lumber such as
> ACQ 0.40 retention, it is made for ground contact. Here's a couple links,
> and the net is full of ground contact lumber. Pole barns are commonly
> built this way, along with decks.
> http://www.eswoodtreatment.com/photogallery.html
> http://www.easybuildings.com/
> You don't need a strong tie attachment at all, unless this was specified
> by the inspector. I would ask the inspector to clarify the 18" round. That
> would take one mighty big auger bit.
>
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Posted by Cabot on July 27, 2009, 4:57 pm
> Not in Calif.
> Although we have built several pole barns with treated lumber when it
> comes to residential construction, the building dept. requires all wood
> to have a ground clearance.
> It is only a better way to build.
> I have seen treated lumber turn and wrot in the ground.
Look, right now Calif is the joke of the states. So, I wouldn't be trying
to brag about it.
LOL... A better way to build, huh? Isn't CA where they have all the
collapses?
Exactly how was the treated lumber treated? Was it meant for ground
contact?
Look, what do you think ground contact means? LOL ... Good grief!
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>> Again, an 18" round hole is common for footings that support less weight
>> bearing. Personally, I've seen treated lumber deck supports rot in the
>> ground and eventually, the whole deck fall of the house as result. That's
>> why I have so much concern in this specific case that the OP is talking
>> about.
> As I asked Loomis, to what degree was the wood treated, he has not
> replied. It's not uncommon for unscruplous contractors to use a lessor
> degree than is required. I too have seen 4x4 treated post rot, but they
> were not for ground contact.