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Electric question - hot neutral

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Electric question - hot neutral Tony 09-18-2007
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Posted by Wayne Whitney on September 19, 2007, 11:59 pm

> Any residential circuit on which has power drawn from the hot needs a
> neutral. The neutral carries the current to earth ground.

Actually, it returns it to the source, the power company
transformer--the earth ground is relevant only because the local
transformer is center tapped and earthed.

> The difference/potential in those conditions is the neutral will be
> at a potential equivalent to the difference voltage drop of the the
> load and the actual supply voltage AND earth ground. Thus, the
> neutral is hot minus the load vs. earth ground is the actual
> potential.

Not sure what you are saying here. If the circuit consists of Hot
Transformer terminal -> Hot wires -> Load -> Neutral wires -> Grounded
Transformer terminal, then the voltages above ground at each point
might be 120V (Transformer), 119V (Hot wire at the Load), 1V (Neutral
wire at the Load), 0V (Grounded Transformer terminal). Under normal
operation, there will never be a 120V voltage difference between a
neutral and an earth (ground).

As for the spark, it indicates current flow and was probably just due
to completing the circuit by connecting the neutral to the EGC, which
is bonded to the grounded service conductor at the main disconnect.

Cheers, Wayne

Posted by Erik Dillenkofer on September 20, 2007, 5:21 am
Think of it this way. The receptacle is acting as an open point between the
black and the neutral. If the neutral is open at another point and a lamp is
plugged into the receptacle, the lamp closes the open point in between the
black and the neutral at the receptacle, and the neutral has just become an
extension of the black up to the open point. That's why he measures 120V. If
the open point was connected like it should have been, the current would
return to the ground at the panel and he'd measure zero volts between
neutral and ground.

>
>> Any residential circuit on which has power drawn from the hot needs a
>> neutral. The neutral carries the current to earth ground.
>
> Actually, it returns it to the source, the power company
> transformer--the earth ground is relevant only because the local
> transformer is center tapped and earthed.
>
>> The difference/potential in those conditions is the neutral will be
>> at a potential equivalent to the difference voltage drop of the the
>> load and the actual supply voltage AND earth ground. Thus, the
>> neutral is hot minus the load vs. earth ground is the actual
>> potential.
>
> Not sure what you are saying here. If the circuit consists of Hot
> Transformer terminal -> Hot wires -> Load -> Neutral wires -> Grounded
> Transformer terminal, then the voltages above ground at each point
> might be 120V (Transformer), 119V (Hot wire at the Load), 1V (Neutral
> wire at the Load), 0V (Grounded Transformer terminal). Under normal
> operation, there will never be a 120V voltage difference between a
> neutral and an earth (ground).
>
> As for the spark, it indicates current flow and was probably just due
> to completing the circuit by connecting the neutral to the EGC, which
> is bonded to the grounded service conductor at the main disconnect.
>
> Cheers, Wayne



Posted by Wayne Whitney on September 20, 2007, 10:43 am

> Think of it this way. The receptacle is acting as an open point
> between the black and the neutral. If the neutral is open at another
> point and a lamp is plugged into the receptacle, the lamp closes the
> open point in between the black and the neutral at the receptacle,
> and the neutral has just become an extension of the black up to the
> open point. That's why he measures 120V.

Ah, of course, thanks for the explanation! Sorry to have been a bit
slow on the uptake here. When there is no circuit, there is no
current, so there is no voltage drop across the load, so the measured
voltage on the open neutral is 120V.

Thanks, Wayne

Posted by Dave on September 20, 2007, 12:44 pm
>
>> Any residential circuit on which has power drawn from the hot needs a
>> neutral. The neutral carries the current to earth ground.
>
> Actually, it returns it to the source, the power company
> transformer--the earth ground is relevant only because the local
> transformer is center tapped and earthed.
>
>> The difference/potential in those conditions is the neutral will be
>> at a potential equivalent to the difference voltage drop of the the
>> load and the actual supply voltage AND earth ground. Thus, the
>> neutral is hot minus the load vs. earth ground is the actual
>> potential.
>
> Not sure what you are saying here. If the circuit consists of Hot
> Transformer terminal -> Hot wires -> Load -> Neutral wires -> Grounded
> Transformer terminal, then the voltages above ground at each point
> might be 120V (Transformer), 119V (Hot wire at the Load), 1V (Neutral
> wire at the Load), 0V (Grounded Transformer terminal). Under normal
> operation, there will never be a 120V voltage difference between a
> neutral and an earth (ground).
>
> As for the spark, it indicates current flow and was probably just due
> to completing the circuit by connecting the neutral to the EGC, which
> is bonded to the grounded service conductor at the main disconnect.
>
> Cheers, Wayne

Begging your pardon here. Two phases of voltage normally enter a home at
the entrance panel. One phase is strictly used for 115/120 VAC to outlets,
lighting and such.

Earth ground is introduced at the end of the utility providers entry to the
users panel. It can be one panel located near the utility pole or outside
the house or a panel inside of the house. Depending where this specific
panel is, determines the function of earth ground at that point. There is
no physical tie to any of the utility regarding earth ground and the users
earth ground.

The users panel where the 115/120 VAC is introduced is where neutral is tied
to earth ground. Neutral goes nowhere else on the return path.

Voltage potential measuring is assuming there is an open between the 2
points measured. IE - hot and neutral. When measuring between the hot and
neutral across a load, that measures the difference accounting for the load.
If that load exists, and a spark gap is made between the neutral and earth
ground, the remaining voltage potential jumps the gap to earth ground.
Creating a spark.

A simple DC battery and light bulb (load) is a good graphical representation
of the same thing. The negative side is hot. The positive side is earth
ground. The wire from the light bulb to the positive side is neutral. The
only difference is that current does not fluctuate and change directions in
a DC circuit, and voltage potential doesn't change @ 120Hz..

Dave



Posted by Wayne Whitney on September 20, 2007, 5:47 pm
Dave, I think we are in agreement. I was missing the fact that with
an interrupted neutral, there is no current flowing in the circuit, so
there is no voltage drop across the load, so the load end of the
interrupted neutral is at the same voltage as the hot.

Cheers, Wayne

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