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Electrical planning- kitchen- # of circuits ker_01 02-01-2008
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Posted by ker_01 on February 1, 2008, 7:27 am
I'm planning a kitchen remodel, and I always like to have a complete
plan before I get started on projects (self or hired contractors). I
also have a tendency to overengineer my projects, but now I'm in a
situation where I need to know where I can pull back a little, because I
have a limited number of unused circuits in my electrical box and I'm
trying to avoid the large additional cost of upgrading my panel.

My house was built in the 1870s, and the current kitchen has limited
electricity. I haven't fully traced the existing wires yet, but I
believe that I have the following:

* Main house circuit (knob and tube) supporting other rooms plus one
kitchen light and two kitchen non-grounded outlets.
* Fridge (may or may not be on it's own circuit
* Stove (I think this is on a separate circuit)

My intent during the remodel is to move the fridge and put in more
outlets and lights, plus a microwave, dishwasher and disposal. In the
perfect world, I'd do the following, but since I don't have enough
circuits I'm wondering if there is anywhere I'm overengineering my plan,
where I could consolidate and save a circuit.

Run new wires and use the existing circuit breakers:
---------------------------------------------------
* 1 circuit to the stove/oven. May also support one BP by the stove for
handheld blender use on the stove
* 1 circuit to the fridge (stays on separate circuit to avoid food
spoilage)

NEW circuits needed:
--------------------
* NEW circuit to a new built-in microwave oven to be installed above the
stove with a vent fan
* NEW circuit for the countertop BPs (for countertop appliances like
mixers, blenders, wafflemakers, etc.). This circuit might share the new
kitchen lighting, which would include undercabinet LED or halogen, 3
pendant lights from the ceiling (60W each).
* NEW circuit with just the dishwasher and disposal.

Of particular interest are the last two- is it appropriate/necessary to
run the dishwasher and disposal on a separate circuit, or is it possible
to put them on the same (GFCI) circuit as the BPs and lights?

Thanks for any advice,
Keith

Posted by jloomis on February 1, 2008, 10:02 am
Why not a sub panel with a larger breaker in it close by the main?
Why not the same sub-panel in on a wall or closet near the kitchen.....?
A sub panel would use one to two breaker spots in the panel, and the sub
panel would have many breaker choices to use.
I just finished a kitchen remodel, and a nice addition was "low watt"
lighting under cabinet which was quite adequate(less energy) and also srip
receptacles under cabinet......invisible.
Good Luck
jloomis
> I'm planning a kitchen remodel, and I always like to have a complete
> plan before I get started on projects (self or hired contractors). I
> also have a tendency to overengineer my projects, but now I'm in a
> situation where I need to know where I can pull back a little, because I
> have a limited number of unused circuits in my electrical box and I'm
> trying to avoid the large additional cost of upgrading my panel.
>
> My house was built in the 1870s, and the current kitchen has limited
> electricity. I haven't fully traced the existing wires yet, but I
> believe that I have the following:
>
> * Main house circuit (knob and tube) supporting other rooms plus one
> kitchen light and two kitchen non-grounded outlets.
> * Fridge (may or may not be on it's own circuit
> * Stove (I think this is on a separate circuit)
>
> My intent during the remodel is to move the fridge and put in more
> outlets and lights, plus a microwave, dishwasher and disposal. In the
> perfect world, I'd do the following, but since I don't have enough
> circuits I'm wondering if there is anywhere I'm overengineering my plan,
> where I could consolidate and save a circuit.
>
> Run new wires and use the existing circuit breakers:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> * 1 circuit to the stove/oven. May also support one BP by the stove for
> handheld blender use on the stove
> * 1 circuit to the fridge (stays on separate circuit to avoid food
> spoilage)
>
> NEW circuits needed:
> --------------------
> * NEW circuit to a new built-in microwave oven to be installed above the
> stove with a vent fan
> * NEW circuit for the countertop BPs (for countertop appliances like
> mixers, blenders, wafflemakers, etc.). This circuit might share the new
> kitchen lighting, which would include undercabinet LED or halogen, 3
> pendant lights from the ceiling (60W each).
> * NEW circuit with just the dishwasher and disposal.
>
> Of particular interest are the last two- is it appropriate/necessary to
> run the dishwasher and disposal on a separate circuit, or is it possible
> to put them on the same (GFCI) circuit as the BPs and lights?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Keith



Posted by Bill on February 2, 2008, 10:17 am
I think a subpanel for the kitchen is an excellent idea. Actually for *all*
kitchens.

In addition to appliances which need separate 20 amp circuits, I feel that
each counter outlet should be on its own 20 amp circuit. This is because
there are quite a few counter top appliances which are energy hogs like a
waffle iron, deep fryer, electric skillet, hot plate, etc. Then lighting
should be on a separate circuit.

So a kitchen subpanel would easily allow all these separate circuits without
taking up all the circuits in the main panel.

Also good idea to have 4 outlets for every counter outlet and space them 2
ft. apart. (Never enough outlets on the counter in a kitchen!)



Posted by HerHusband on February 2, 2008, 12:27 pm
> I think a subpanel for the kitchen is an excellent idea.
> Actually for *all* kitchens.

It really depends on where your main panel is located. Mine is located on
the backside of the kitchen wall in the laundry room, with plenty of
breaker slots available. So there's no reason or advantage to use a
subpanel.

Of course, kitchens have a lot of circuits so a subpanel is a smart idea if
your main panel is a good distance from the kitchen.

> In addition to appliances which need separate 20 amp circuits, I feel
> that each counter outlet should be on its own 20 amp circuit. This is
> because there are quite a few counter top appliances which are energy
> hogs like a waffle iron, deep fryer, electric skillet, hot plate, etc.

We have a relatively small kitchen, and still have over 8 outlets. That's a
lot of circuits to run individually, and you would need even more for
larger kitchens.

Besides, you're unlikely to use more than two or three of those appliances
at a time, and most won't use anywhere near the capacity of a 20A circuit.
Even using two appliances on each of two circuits would mean four
appliances going at once. I'd be hard pressed to think of an instance we
ever had more than two going at once (toaster and coffee maker).

But there would be no harm in adding more circuits if you feel the need and
have the available breaker slots.

> Also good idea to have 4 outlets for every counter outlet and space
> them 2 ft. apart. (Never enough outlets on the counter in a kitchen!)

That might make sense if you plan on leaving the appliances plugged in all
the time. We always unplug ours and store them in the cabinets.

Anthony

Posted by HerHusband on February 1, 2008, 10:12 am
Hi Keith,

> I'm planning a kitchen remodel
> My house was built in the 1870s
> I'm wondering if there is anywhere I'm overengineering my plan,
> where I could consolidate and save a circuit.

Things have changed a lot since the days of a single circuit for the
entire kitchen, except for a separate range circuit. My in-laws house is
wired the same way.

These days you should (and I believe code now requires) separate circuits
for each major appliance. This usually means:

60A - 240V circuit for range/oven
20A - 120V circuit for refrigerator
20A - 120V circuit for microwave
20A - 120V circuit for dishwasher
20A - 120V circuit for garbage disposal.

You also must have "TWO" 20A-120V small appliance circuits (the kitchen
outlets). The outlets themselves must be no more than four feet apart
(since most small appliances only have 2 foot cords), and any counter 2
feet or larger must have an outlet available. It usually works best to
alternate your outlets along long runs of counters. One outlet is on the
first circuit, second outlet is on the second circuit, third outlet is on
the first circuit, and so on. You can save cable by using 12/3 wire for
these two circuits, alternating which hot leg you use for every other
outlet.

You also need a separate 15A or 20A circuit for the kitchen lighting. As
far as I know, lights are not allowed on the appliance circuits. But you
can put the range hood fan/light (not a microwave) on the lighting
circuit.

If your dining area is part of the kitchen (i.e. not a separate room),
any outlets should be on the kitchen small appliance circuit. The dining
lights can go on the kitchen lighting circuit. I also put small items
like our doorbell and ceiling fan on the kitchen lighting circuit (both
are in our dining area).

> I can pull back a little, because I have a limited number
> of unused circuits in my electrical box and I'm trying to
> avoid the large additional cost of upgrading my panel.

You might be able to use those breakers that have two circuits in a
single breaker to pack more circuits into limited panel space.

Or, you could install one larger breaker and install a subpanel somewhere
with as many breakers as you need for the kitchen.

You might want to pick up a copy of "Code Check Electrical". It's not a
"how-to" type of book, but it's a good reference for code requirements.

Hope this helps,

Anthony

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