Forced air vs baseboard water system in heating/cooling

Posted by DD_BobK on October 26, 2009, 8:32 pm

wrote:

> > On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:

> >> Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned
> >> with
> >> ease -- by their very design, in fact.

> > I'm curious how well they perform vs. wall-mount radiator panels, thoug=

> > I grew up overseas with houses all fitted with the latter - my experien=

> > of baseboard water-heat so far is that they all seem to take a lot long=

> > until the room *feels* warm. I assume it's because people tend to be at
> > "people height" and having the heat source right on the baseboard means=

> > takes a while before the benefit's really felt (we have electric
> > baseboards at our current house and they seem to give similar behavior)

> >> But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
> >> Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handli=

> >> the condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt.
> >> consequences.

> > Is a related problem to the above not going to happen - i.e. all the
> > cooled air will stay at the bottom of the room, with it still being hot=

> > the level where the occupants generally are?
> > My experience of AC has always been that it's ducted and blown upward -
> > without any kind of fan assist, maybe there's a "danger" that you'll ju=

> > end up expensively cooling everyone's feet?

> >> Is this do-able, practical in a house? =A0How would long-ish horizonta=

> >> pipe runs be handled? =A0Just avoid? =A0How to handle the condensate o=

> >> vertical pipes?

> > I'm curious about that, too - mainly because the water from our well si=

> > at about 50F year-round, and in the hot months the condensation on the
> > basement pipe runs can get quite bad. Insulation would presumably hlp, =

but

> > only if it's "good enough" (as otherwise it'll turn into a moisture tra=

> > and cause all sorts of issues).
> > Doubtless it's possible to buy pipe that has insulation bonded to it,
> > rather than doing it after the fact, and this would probably work well
> > for some kind of AC system.

> >> The energy savings would be, in my case, substantial, but the
> >> installation cost would also likely be substantial, at the least.

> > Personally I just open more windows when it gets hot - but it only gets=

> > to about 90F here, so I can appreciate it's a different matter in hotte=

> > areas.
> > I would like to fit hot-water radiators here, but only if I can find
> > some wall ones rather than baseboard...

> Indeed, I mis-spoke.
> Altho I indeed said "baseboard", thinking more of the pipes themselves, I
> mean these highly finned units, about the size of suitcases, that blow up
> and out, at about 45 deg -- altho for the heat they probably should blow
> *down* about 45 deg. =A0Perhaps what you meant by "wall radiator panels".
> But at any rate, these units are not cheap, either. =A0These units, Trane=

> that I priced over 10 years ago, were $1400 *each*. =A0goodgawd....
> And really nothing more than finned coils with a speed fan and an off
> position!
> But very quiet.
> And to respond to Bob, the chilled water is not used in an air-exchange
> system, with air being delivered, but the water actually piped to the
> buildings and to these room units, where a fan then makes the thermal
> exchange with the room air.
> In large complexes, the "condensers" for these units are actually huge
> evaporative cooling towers, the size of whole buildings themselves, with =

the

> refrigerant often being something like lithium bromide in very large
> "absorption chillers".
> But the condensing process is not the issue here, as many different types=

> water chilling systems can be used, with the chilled water piped directly
> into the living units.
> Thus, a substantial issue with condensation, which, as I mentioned before=

> has been knowd to flood out apartments.
> I think I calculated once that a residential 5 ton unit (60,000 btu's), o=

n a

> suff'ly humid hot day, can fill a 55 gal drum, or perhaps even quite a bi=

> more.
> So condensate handling is a big issue.
> --
> EA

> > cheers
> > Jules

EA-

I may be mistaken but I'm getting the vibe that you have pretty mcuh
no idea what you;re talking about....

>>>>nothing more than finned coils with a speed fan <<<<<

ah, that would be the water - air heater exchanger of which I spoke &
the point at which condensation must be dealt with

I think you need to read my post more carefully

cheers
Bob

Posted by Doug Miller on October 26, 2009, 7:58 pm

>On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:

>> Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned with
>> ease -- by their very design, in fact.

>I'm curious how well they perform vs. wall-mount radiator panels, though.
>I grew up overseas with houses all fitted with the latter - my experience
>of baseboard water-heat so far is that they all seem to take a lot longer
>until the room *feels* warm. I assume it's because people tend to be at
>"people height" and having the heat source right on the baseboard means it
>takes a while before the benefit's really felt (we have electric
>baseboards at our current house and they seem to give similar behavior)

Depends a *lot* on what type of baseboard heaters you have. Finned-tube
baseboard heaters don't seem to deliver nearly as much heat as the solid
cast-iron types. My house has a combination of both: mostly iron, and a few
finned-tube heaters in areas that were remodeled long after original
construction. The iron ones take longer to heat up -- but they also take a lot
longer to cool off, which makes for a much more even heat. I wouldn't trade
them. When we remodeled the kitchen a few years ago, I removed the finned-tube
heaters that someone had installed in the 1980s and replaced them with more
cast-iron units; the kitchen is now *much* more comfortable than it was.

>> But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
>> Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handling
>> the condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt.
>> consequences.

>Is a related problem to the above not going to happen - i.e. all the
>cooled air will stay at the bottom of the room, with it still being hot at
>the level where the occupants generally are?
>My experience of AC has always been that it's ducted and blown upward -
>without any kind of fan assist, maybe there's a "danger" that you'll just
>end up expensively cooling everyone's feet?

>> Is this do-able, practical in a house? How would long-ish horizontal
>> pipe runs be handled? Just avoid? How to handle the condensate off
>> vertical pipes?

>I'm curious about that, too - mainly because the water from our well sits
>at about 50F year-round, and in the hot months the condensation on the
>basement pipe runs can get quite bad. Insulation would presumably hlp, but
>only if it's "good enough" (as otherwise it'll turn into a moisture trap
>and cause all sorts of issues).
>Doubtless it's possible to buy pipe that has insulation bonded to it,
>rather than doing it after the fact, and this would probably work well
>for some kind of AC system.

>> The energy savings would be, in my case, substantial, but the
>> installation cost would also likely be substantial, at the least.

>Personally I just open more windows when it gets hot - but it only gets up
>to about 90F here, so I can appreciate it's a different matter in hotter
>areas.
>I would like to fit hot-water radiators here, but only if I can find
>some wall ones rather than baseboard...
>cheers
>Jules

Posted by Ed Pawlowski on October 26, 2009, 10:09 pm

> Depends a *lot* on what type of baseboard heaters you have. Finned-tube
> baseboard heaters don't seem to deliver nearly as much heat as the solid
> cast-iron types. My house has a combination of both: mostly iron, and a
> few
> finned-tube heaters in areas that were remodeled long after original
> construction. The iron ones take longer to heat up -- but they also take a
> lot
> longer to cool off, which makes for a much more even heat. I wouldn't
> trade
> them. When we remodeled the kitchen a few years ago, I removed the
> finned-tube
> heaters that someone had installed in the 1980s and replaced them with
> more
> cast-iron units; the kitchen is now *much* more comfortable than it was.

I hope they are on different zones. Putting the two types together on the
same zone makes for poor temperature control for the reasons you state. The
CI does not need the circulator running as much once heated. I'm not sure
of the cost difference, but sometime in the 60's, the finned tube became
much more predominant. Wish I had the CI in my house.

Posted by PeterD on October 26, 2009, 7:08 pm

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, "Existential Angst"

>Awl --
>My 1920's house has forced air, does a decent job heating, a middling job
>cooling the house, but at great expense -- essentially no zoning in these
>old houses. NYC area.
>Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned with
>ease -- by their very design, in fact.

But, difficult to install, and block a lot of wall space where
furnature might go. I've mixed feelign on them, have baseboards in my
(current) house, and like them, but also still like forced hot air.

>But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
>Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handling the
>condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt. consequences.

Personally I'm not sure this is practical.

Posted by Existential Angst on October 26, 2009, 7:33 pm

> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, "Existential Angst"

>>Awl --
>>My 1920's house has forced air, does a decent job heating, a middling job
>>cooling the house, but at great expense -- essentially no zoning in these
>>old houses. NYC area.
>>Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned
>>with
>>ease -- by their very design, in fact.

> But, difficult to install, and block a lot of wall space where
> furnature might go. I've mixed feelign on them, have baseboards in my
> (current) house, and like them, but also still like forced hot air.

I believe I have seen baseboard heating recessed into the ball/baseboard.
Altho this probably hinders the natural convection process that makes
baseboard heaters more effective.

Ultimately, Da Heating Bomb is radiant floor heating -- altho god help the
home-moaner if a leak is sprung.
And, not easily retrofitted.

>>But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
>>Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handling
>>the
>>condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt. consequences.

> Personally I'm not sure this is practical.

And not cheap.
It seems like, from the responses here and elsewhere, that it simply is not
done residentially, even among the rich. Not sure, but that's the
impression I'm getting.

In the big complexes where they do run chilled water into fan units in apts,
I think they get away with this because 99.99% of the piping is vertical,
with just itty bitty Tee'd length of pipe going to the units, and then
condensate pans proly collect the small amount of condensate from these T's,
and dump it with the condensate from the coils/fins.

This would proly have to mimic'd pretty accurately in a home, and then only
in new construction.
But if there are secrets to doing this post-construction in homes, I'm all
ears.
--
EA

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Forced air vs baseboard water system in heating/cooling - Page 2