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Posted by trader4 on October 29, 2009, 11:44 am
wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> > On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> >>Awl --
> >>My 1920's house has forced air, does a decent job heating, a middling j=
> >>cooling the house, but at great expense -- essentially no zoning in the=
> >>old houses. =A0NYC area.
> >>Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned
> >>with
> >>ease -- by their very design, in fact.
> > But, difficult to install, and block a lot of wall space where
> > furnature might go. I've mixed feelign on them, have baseboards in my
> > (current) house, and like them, but also still like forced hot air.
> I believe I have seen baseboard heating recessed into the ball/baseboard.
> Altho this probably hinders the natural convection process that makes
> baseboard heaters more effective.
> Ultimately, Da Heating Bomb is radiant floor heating -- altho god help th=
> home-moaner if a leak is sprung.
> And, not easily retrofitted.
> >>But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
> >>Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handlin=
> >>the
> >>condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt. consequence=
> > Personally I'm not sure this is practical.
> And not cheap.
> It seems like, from the responses here and elsewhere, that it simply is n=
> done residentially, even among the rich. =A0Not sure, but that's the
> impression I'm getting.
> In the big complexes where they do run chilled water into fan units in ap=
ts,
show/hide quoted text
> I think they get away with this because 99.99% of the piping is vertical,
> with just itty bitty Tee'd length of pipe going to the units, and then
> condensate pans proly collect the small amount of condensate from these T=
's,
show/hide quoted text
> and dump it with the condensate from the coils/fins.
> This would proly have to mimic'd pretty accurately in a home, and then on=
> in new construction.
> But if there are secrets to doing this post-construction in homes, I'm al=
> ears.
> --
> EA
> - Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
It would seem to me you could probably install a zoned electrically
controlled damper system in the existing forced air system a lot
easier.
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Posted by Existential Angst on October 29, 2009, 12:51 pm
wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> > On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> >>Awl --
> >>My 1920's house has forced air, does a decent job heating, a middling
> >>job
> >>cooling the house, but at great expense -- essentially no zoning in
> >>these
> >>old houses. NYC area.
> >>Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned
> >>with
> >>ease -- by their very design, in fact.
> > But, difficult to install, and block a lot of wall space where
> > furnature might go. I've mixed feelign on them, have baseboards in my
> > (current) house, and like them, but also still like forced hot air.
> I believe I have seen baseboard heating recessed into the ball/baseboard.
> Altho this probably hinders the natural convection process that makes
> baseboard heaters more effective.
> Ultimately, Da Heating Bomb is radiant floor heating -- altho god help the
> home-moaner if a leak is sprung.
> And, not easily retrofitted.
> >>But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
> >>Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handling
> >>the
> >>condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt.
> >>consequences.
> > Personally I'm not sure this is practical.
> And not cheap.
> It seems like, from the responses here and elsewhere, that it simply is
> not
> done residentially, even among the rich. Not sure, but that's the
> impression I'm getting.
> In the big complexes where they do run chilled water into fan units in
> apts,
> I think they get away with this because 99.99% of the piping is vertical,
> with just itty bitty Tee'd length of pipe going to the units, and then
> condensate pans proly collect the small amount of condensate from these
> T's,
> and dump it with the condensate from the coils/fins.
> This would proly have to mimic'd pretty accurately in a home, and then
> only
> in new construction.
> But if there are secrets to doing this post-construction in homes, I'm all
> ears.
> --
> EA
> - Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
It would seem to me you could probably install a zoned electrically
controlled damper system in the existing forced air system a lot
easier.
========================================
Ask this old house showed something just like this, except it was a
pneumatic balloon stuffed in each register, with a pyooter in the basement.
You would also need a temp sensor in each room. I think there is a short
video of this on either the PBS website or this old house, and you can read
the name of the company off a shot of the product -- oh yeah,
http://www.homecomfortzones.com.
And yeah, def'ly cheaper, altho I'll bet the hcz solution will still leave
a home-moaner reaching for the prepH.
But, if I were doing it from scratch, I'll bet a baseboard HW system would
be about the same install price as forced air + the hcz damper ditty, AND
operating-wise, I'll bet the HW system is a lot more efficient -- right
away, you dispense with a 10+ A blower motor, and probably better heat
transfer from flame to water.
But that still leaves the A/C: forced air would kill both birds with one
stone. Altho, you proly should have separate registers for heat and A/C --
one low, one high.
But, mebbe chilled water in a house would not be so bad to install, if built
with the house. I think the strategy would have to be that 99.9% of the
piping would have to be vertical, ie, no horizontal runs from fan unit to
fan unit (room to room). Altho the fan units can be miserably expensive.
Sep. minisplits for each room would be perfect zoning, but not cheap either.
No cheap lunches, apparently.
--
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Posted by Existential Angst on October 29, 2009, 1:49 pm
http://www.pbs.org/thisoldhouse/videos/viewer.php?playertype=quicktime;speed=320;mediatype=video;media=%2Fwgbh%2Fthisoldhouse%2Fforced-air-zones-320.mov%2C%2Fwgbh%2Fthisoldhouse%2Fforced-air-zones-320.wmv;version=1.0;basepath=%2Fthisoldhouse%2Fvideos%2Fviewer.php;item=forced-air-zones;prefchange=1
A short video of the installation of zoning in an existing forced air
system. Perty neat.
I don't recall them actually discussing the temp sensor in each room, and
the wiring thereof, altho that part could be wireless.
--
wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> > On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:28:13 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> >>Awl --
> >>My 1920's house has forced air, does a decent job heating, a middling
> >>job
> >>cooling the house, but at great expense -- essentially no zoning in
> >>these
> >>old houses. NYC area.
> >>Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned
> >>with
> >>ease -- by their very design, in fact.
> > But, difficult to install, and block a lot of wall space where
> > furnature might go. I've mixed feelign on them, have baseboards in my
> > (current) house, and like them, but also still like forced hot air.
> I believe I have seen baseboard heating recessed into the ball/baseboard.
> Altho this probably hinders the natural convection process that makes
> baseboard heaters more effective.
> Ultimately, Da Heating Bomb is radiant floor heating -- altho god help the
> home-moaner if a leak is sprung.
> And, not easily retrofitted.
> >>But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
> >>Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handling
> >>the
> >>condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt.
> >>consequences.
> > Personally I'm not sure this is practical.
> And not cheap.
> It seems like, from the responses here and elsewhere, that it simply is
> not
> done residentially, even among the rich. Not sure, but that's the
> impression I'm getting.
> In the big complexes where they do run chilled water into fan units in
> apts,
> I think they get away with this because 99.99% of the piping is vertical,
> with just itty bitty Tee'd length of pipe going to the units, and then
> condensate pans proly collect the small amount of condensate from these
> T's,
> and dump it with the condensate from the coils/fins.
> This would proly have to mimic'd pretty accurately in a home, and then
> only
> in new construction.
> But if there are secrets to doing this post-construction in homes, I'm all
> ears.
> --
> EA
> - Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
It would seem to me you could probably install a zoned electrically
controlled damper system in the existing forced air system a lot
easier.
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Posted by Bob F on October 29, 2009, 5:29 pm
Existential Angst wrote:
show/hide quoted text
>
http://www.pbs.org/thisoldhouse/videos/viewer.php?playertype=quicktime;speed=320;mediatype=video;media=%2Fwgbh%2Fthisoldhouse%2Fforced-air-zones-320.mov%2C%2Fwgbh%2Fthisoldhouse%2Fforced-air-zones-320.wmv;version=1.0;basepath=%2Fthisoldhouse%2Fvideos%2Fviewer.php;item=forced-air-zones;prefchange=1
show/hide quoted text
> A short video of the installation of zoning in an existing forced air
> system. Perty neat.
> I don't recall them actually discussing the temp sensor in each room,
> and the wiring thereof, altho that part could be wireless.
I suppose the tubing they install is "plenum rated".
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Posted by Ed Pawlowski on October 26, 2009, 10:14 pm
show/hide quoted text
> But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
> Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handling
> the condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt.
> consequences.
> Is this do-able, practical in a house? How would long-ish horizontal pipe
> runs be handled? Just avoid? How to handle the condensate off vertical
> pipes?
You just answered your question. Chillers in homes are not so practical and
can be expensive to run, may need water treatment and testing. Running
baseboard through the house may be difficult now too, depending on layout
and design. PEX does make it much easier than copper or iron ipe though.
If you want to make radical changes, talk to a couple of local contractors
that can see what your needs are and what type of construction you have.
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> >>Awl --
> >>My 1920's house has forced air, does a decent job heating, a middling j=
> >>cooling the house, but at great expense -- essentially no zoning in the=
> >>old houses. =A0NYC area.
> >>Baseboard hot water systems are great, as they can be infinitely zoned
> >>with
> >>ease -- by their very design, in fact.
> > But, difficult to install, and block a lot of wall space where
> > furnature might go. I've mixed feelign on them, have baseboards in my
> > (current) house, and like them, but also still like forced hot air.
> I believe I have seen baseboard heating recessed into the ball/baseboard.
> Altho this probably hinders the natural convection process that makes
> baseboard heaters more effective.
> Ultimately, Da Heating Bomb is radiant floor heating -- altho god help th=
> home-moaner if a leak is sprung.
> And, not easily retrofitted.
> >>But what about using the same for air conditioning (:"chilled water")?
> >>Large buildings use this system, and have internal plumbing for handlin=
> >>the
> >>condensate -- which can overflow, btw, with disastrous apt. consequence=
> > Personally I'm not sure this is practical.
> And not cheap.
> It seems like, from the responses here and elsewhere, that it simply is n=
> done residentially, even among the rich. =A0Not sure, but that's the
> impression I'm getting.
> In the big complexes where they do run chilled water into fan units in ap=