Gong solar

Posted by Dioclese on July 4, 2009, 9:06 am

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I don't see much on this here. So, I thought I'd throw in my recent =
experience on research on it. I live in central TX (abundant sun). My =
house has a hip roof wth one quarter facing the south, detached garage, =
which is about 150 feet from house, has gable roof with one side facing =
south. Both are 5 on 12 pitch. My electric provider is PEC. =
http://www.pec.coop
My annual electric use has been approximately under 1100 KW for the past =
3 years. I am the only occupant of the 1250 sq. ft. 3 bedroom home, =
completed in Feb 2005. The roof has composition shingles. The property =
consists of 5 acres in a rural area of course.
Here's an example of quotes for installation AFTER federal tax credits. =
Includes all hardware to connect between house main electrical panel and =
meter.
20 solar panels, 5000 KW/year, $16K
30 solar panels, 7500 KW/year, $22.6K
54 solar panels 13.543 KW/year $38.36K
In the latter case, some panels would have to go on the garage.
Complete battery system for off-grid, and/or, loss of electric from =
provider. $15K
Also, passive solar water heater
80 gallon tank, 2 roof mounted arrays, pump and electrical hardware. =
$5.6K
All are guaranteed for 5 years per their warranty. With the exception =
of the solar panels which is 20 years. Expected life for solar panels =
is 30-40 years. Battery life varies from 2-5 years depending on the =
type. Passive water heater uses a liquid that has to be changed every 2 =
years.
Some things that stand out other than the obvious money shock. =
Replacement of the composition shingles later for instance. PECs =
requirements, homeowners insurance coverage of both the hardware and =
potential for personnel death or injury from the equipment, and =
potential for damaging PECs equipment.
http://www.pec.coop/About/Interconnection.aspx
http://www.pec.coop/Documents/InterconnectionAgreement.pdf
Okay, the company installs all the solar equipment. Now, I have to wait =
60 days till they can connect it to the grid. Assuming I have the =
proper insurance of course. I still pay $22.50 a month for electrical =
service, even if I don't use it, or even feedback power to the grid in a =
net positive sense. And, I pay a hair more in electrical power usage =
from them if I connect this equipment to the grid.
I'm still waiting a response from my insurance agent on equipment =
coverage, and personnel and equipment damage liability regarding my =
current homeowners insurance. Some research shows that some homeowners =
insurance will cover such "green" things at minimal cost, some at =
greater cost, and some simply will not.
If I do decide to do this, I'll probably go with a the latter system =
with batteries. Build a big carport type structure to put all the solar =
panels on its roof, and battery storage area.
Financing, the VP at my local community bank isn't sure. Needs in =
writing from potential installation company their estimates of cost. =
She says I qualify for all that I listed as home improvement, but again, =
needs a hard paper cost from the potential installer. My home loan vs. =
house worth is definitely right-side up. (Not all banks will finance =
such "green" home improvements, right-side up or not).
There is much more detail to this. Hope this helps if someone is =
looking into this out there.
http://www.greeniacs.com/GreeniacsGuides/Power-Your-Home-with-Solar-Panel=
s.html
--=20
Dave
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experience on research on it.  I live in central TX (abundant =
sun). =20
My house has a hip roof wth one quarter facing the south, detached =
garage, which=20
is about 150 feet from house, has gable roof with one =
side facing=20
south.  Both are 5 on 12 pitch.  My electric provider is =
PEC.  <A=20
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for the=20
past 3 years.  I am the only occupant of the 1250 sq. ft. 3 bedroom =
home,=20
completed in Feb 2005.  The roof has composition shingles. The =
property=20
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credits.  Includes all hardware to connect between house main =
electrical=20
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hardware.=20
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exception=20
of the solar panels which is 20 years.  Expected life for solar =
panels is=20
30-40 years.  Battery life varies from 2-5 years depending on the=20
type.  Passive water heater uses a liquid that has to be changed =
every 2=20
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shock.  Replacement of the composition shingles later for =
instance.  PECs requirements, homeowners insurance coverage of both =
the=20
hardware and potential for personnel death or injury from the equipment, =
and=20
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ONT=20
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to wait=20
60 days till they can connect it to the grid.  Assuming I =
have=20
the proper insurance of course.  I still pay $22.50 a month for =
electrical=20
service, even if I don't use it, or even feedback power to the grid in a =
net=20
positive sense.  And, I pay a hair more in electrical power usage =
from them=20
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coverage,=20
and personnel and equipment damage liability regarding my current =
homeowners=20
insurance.  Some research shows that some homeowners insurance will =
cover=20
such "green" things at minimal cost, some at greater cost, and some =
simply will=20
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with=20
batteries.  Build a big carport type structure to put all the solar =
panels=20
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in=20
writing from potential installation company their estimates of =
cost.  She=20
says I qualify for all that I listed as home improvement, but =
again, needs=20
a hard paper cost from the potential installer.  My home =
loan vs.=20
house worth is definitely right-side up.  (Not all banks will =
finance such=20
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is=20
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href=3D"http://www.greeniacs.com/GreeniacsGuides/Power-Your-Home-with-Sol=
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Posted by Cwatters on July 4, 2009, 6:17 pm

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Have you worked out the payback time on those?
Even if you aren't worried about payback...when do they break even on C02?

Posted by Dioclese on July 5, 2009, 2:11 am

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My many decade long bet is that electrical energy production cost, either by
long-term future purchased solar equipment or by an electric supplier, will
escalate far beyond any current estimate. Has nothing to do with the
economic drivel of today's weighing by news "authorities" and government
"officials". Which is what you're talking about. I don't think like that.
And have no excuse for such based on the past one year history of such
"experts". Particularly, in the economic front.
More people on the planet from second to subsequent second. They will all
make their own CO2 and add to the total if things remains as they are now.
GE's wind turbines and wind farms that use it. Where does that energy come
from to make those turbines? Kinda like the battery thing for hybrid cars
as well. Yes its the here and now, and may change to "green" throughout the
scheme of things. But, your thinking on solar energy electrical energy
generation and its cost is the here and now as well. It doesn't go beyond
that. The thoughts are clouded in a implausibility of today not changing
tomorrow economically. Hung up on payback based on things we can't foresee.
Hung up on a population increase and their choices we can't control.
Instead of each INDIVIDUAL trying to take control of their own destiny. I
can't draw you a better picture except to say that today is Independence
Day.
--
Dave

Posted by AndyS on July 6, 2009, 7:04 pm

Andy comments:
Consider you get the 16K system and the 15K battery infrastructure,
since it
would be needed.
That's 31K.
If you put the 31K in the bank at, say a "typical" 4% interest,
that money
would give you $1240 a year in interest.
At 15 cents per kwh, that would buy you 8266 kwh of electricity on
the grid.
That is over 8 times what you said your yearly use is......
And you would still have the 31K in the bank to use to buy beer
with.....
If you had to borrow the 31K to build the system, it's even more one-
sided.......
I guess it just depends on what bank interest rate you can average
over the
expected 20 years of useful life, and what the cost per kwh of
electricity is in your
area.
Oh... another thing.... the batteries won't last 20 years. Maybe
5, if you are
lucky , and nurse them along..... That will tie up a lot of your
"free"time, that
could maybe be better used holding down a second job to pay your
electric
bill......
My point is...... there ain't no way to generate your own
electricity as cheaply
as connecting to the grid....unless you are in a sailboat or a remote
cabin.....
Andy in Eureka, Texas

Posted by Dioclese on July 7, 2009, 8:33 am

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Your assumptions are one year based here. What does the future hold? 20,
30, 40 years from now?
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What are you assuming for the future for 20, 30, and 40 years from now?
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You seem to be forecasting total lack of inflation when the country/world
comes out of this recession. What model crystal ball do you use?
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No one KNOWS the future, including the news media, FED and U.S. Treasury.
That's where "balls" comes in.
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If you go back and read the original post, I said the batteries may last 2-5
years. Your second job scenario seems to be based on the here and now
again. A second job to pay for increased electrical costs off the grid in
the future may be a losing battle.
The 15K I quoted was for the entire electrical system devoted for AC
electrical generation from the batteries, not just the batteries.
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Tomorrow may result in the same cost or more in buying electricity off the
grid compared to making it solar.
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I made the original post to help those investigating such in regards to
hidden costs, paperwork, legalities, maintenance costs.
They can make up their own minds regarding the cost of energy in the future.
And weigh that before making their final decision.
It doesn't hurt to go window shopping either. Meaning you don't have to
buy, but you can certainly investigate what's out there. Gives a better
perspective in the future in many ways. Particularly when news media, and
politicians in the future try to comment on the past regarding all the costs
to go solar now. You'll have you own opinion based on reality, not their
version of it.
--
Dave

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