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How to re & re with a new 3/4" compression ball valve while water is streaming bent 02-27-2007
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Posted by bent on February 27, 2007, 5:58 pm
these are the issues:
1)how to finish old 3/4" copper tube cut ends I'll be putting into the valve
bores after using the tube cutter
2)which of my two valve assembly methods to use for sliding the valves'
bores onto the tubes' cut ends, and ease of sleeve manipulation
3)disconnection/unscrewing at the water meters "out" connection and if there
are any seals or fittings of any material I need to obtain, and if I can
(safely) use a galvanized cap temporarily to stop the leaking water flow,
with or without Teflon tape or plumbers dope

I purchased a B&K 3/4" Ball Valve with compression fittings (on both ends)
which I want to install in a vertical stretch of 3/4" copper tubing JUST
AFTER the horizontally mounted ("Trident Canada/Neptune") water meter. This
is because my current original main water shut-off valve, near front of
house, up through slab, located JUST BEFORE the water meter is faulty. It
is faulty in that it does not shut off the water completely when it is fully
closed - it still flows at a rate of about a 12oz. glass of water every
minute. It is also a "poor" shut-off valve because it very stiff to close
the old hand wheel handle even with a wrench. I have some repair soldering
to do elsewhere in the house, so I need to be able to shut off and drain the
lines completely. My water company could come out and shut the water off
at the street ($15 charge each time either to turn the water off, or on, or
both, if extremely fast). The faulty old valve is installed with very
tight proximity on rusty old/ painted "pipe" or tube, with hex fittings, and
is too difficult to fix or replace without more experience and having to
call the water company.

In order to fit the new valve into the vertical run I have bought a
wheel-type mini tube cutter. The valve installed will be about 3-7/8" from
end to end, including outer nuts and compression sleeves installed. I have
measured both sides for the distances from the outer edges to the bottoming
points (.967" & .835", plus the 3/8" sleeve and 1/16" edge of locking nut),
and subtracting from the 3-7/8", the valve will displace 1.282" of 3/4"
vertical copper tubing, which I have to cut out.

After I mark and cut out the 1.282" of 3/4" tubing with the mini wheel tube
cutter (Brasscraft T007 from HD), do I need to touch up the ends of the
freshly cut tubing? I have never done this before, so I can only assume
that the outer edge will be chamfered from the wheel of the cutter, and that
the end will be straight, and any burr will be on the inside, and
irrelevant, except it may chip off in drinking water. The water will be
running through the tubing at an estimated 12oz./minute, so
should/could/would I try to touch up the ends in any way with a file, or
sandpaper, or brush? Its the inside of a compression fitting, remember.

Next, there are 2 ways I can insert the valve into the displaced area of the
tubing. The first is to cut the gap larger than the calculated 1.282", so I
can slip the nuts then sleeves on both pieces of Vert. tubing, and slide on
end of the valve up to the bottoming point, then align and slip in the other
end of the valve, and center it all. This means that neither end of the
tubing would be at the bottoming point of the valve. I would just have to
position the valve so it was centered and have an equal maximum connection
join on both sides. I haven't calculated how much of the 3/4" tube ends
would be mating in the bores this way, but I also have a little flex in the
V-H-V pipe/meter/pipe/tube assembly too. I do not know how tight the
sleeves will be on the tube, and how easy it will be to adjust their
position during assembly. Am unsure if it would be advisable to put the
sleeves in boiling water, or something for a minute to expand them prior to
assembly to make them easier to slide. Another way is to unscrew the water
meter compression fitting on the "out"-end connection with the nut, which
gives me the ability to snuggly butt the tube ends to the bottoming points
(or best possible) in the valves bores. I like this idea. I am at a
standstill because I am not sure if there are going to be rubber seals or
compression pieces which would need replacing, either I would have to get
them beforehand or not use this method. I do not know if a permanently
leaking problem will make it hard/impossible to re-connect it the nut and
any washers or seals inside. To take the pressure off me, I may be able to
stop the flow instead of using buckets/trays. I bought a 3/4" galvanized
cap in the plumbing dept of HD which seems to have the same thread as the
thread on the out"-end connection of the water meter. In pondering, the guy
at HD did check it against another thread coming off something. I am out of
my depth w/r/t the thread types, like NPT vs. NC, but I viewed 4 threads (5
crests) in 4-1/2" or 4-2/3" sixteenths on a steel rule and a major diameter
of 1.044" on a dial caliper, which is an estimated 1"-14, regardless of
thread type The cap I got has a similar visual distance between 5 crests
(4-1/2+), and a minor diameter of .934". That's a .110" (1.76/16ths) diff
b/t meter's max and nut's min thread diameters, and a visual tpi equality of
+/- 0.1/16". Still I am in no way sure if the cap will fit, or even if I
should disconnect the water meter "out"-end connection. ALL hardware before
the Vertical 3/4" tube I intend to splice into looks like pipe fitters
"pipe" type components vs. copper "tube", but I'm not sure. Also, the HD
guy said to use Teflon tape to seal the cap, but what about re-assembly and
whether to clean or add Teflon tape, with or w/o seals or fittings.
.



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Posted by DanG on February 27, 2007, 9:21 pm
You need to change the main shut off valve in my opinion.

There are many ways to do so. $15 with the city sounds cheap to
me as long as you are ready to work with them.

You have never said what your piping (the stuff coming in from
outside) is made from, it makes a huge difference. Choices:
copper, pvc, iron pipe (probably galvanized), other. Unknown is
not an acceptable answer and if you don't know you need a plumber.
It surprises me that you have a shut off on the city's side of the
meter. If you plan to remove the existing valve on threaded pipe,
make sure you use a back up wrench on the pipe so your problems
don't multiply.

You describe hex fittings which might be iron pipe fittings. If
someone else wound it on, you can wind it off or cut it off. Be
prepared to cut the pipe or remove the old one, have a new one
ready to go. I would plan on installing a new FIP ball valve. If
you have to cut the pipe, here is an example of a compression
valve that could work:
<http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catId=64&parCat=226&pid=609&ref=2>
. You would like to find a Ford type connection. Once you have
the water stopped, you can do whatever needs to be done.
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
dgriff237@7cox.net



> these are the issues:
> 1)how to finish old 3/4" copper tube cut ends I'll be putting
> into the valve bores after using the tube cutter
> 2)which of my two valve assembly methods to use for sliding the
> valves' bores onto the tubes' cut ends, and ease of sleeve
> manipulation
> 3)disconnection/unscrewing at the water meters "out" connection
> and if there are any seals or fittings of any material I need to
> obtain, and if I can (safely) use a galvanized cap temporarily
> to stop the leaking water flow, with or without Teflon tape or
> plumbers dope
>
> I purchased a B&K 3/4" Ball Valve with compression fittings (on
> both ends) which I want to install in a vertical stretch of 3/4"
> copper tubing JUST AFTER the horizontally mounted ("Trident
> Canada/Neptune") water meter. This is because my current
> original main water shut-off valve, near front of house, up
> through slab, located JUST BEFORE the water meter is faulty. It
> is faulty in that it does not shut off the water completely when
> it is fully closed - it still flows at a rate of about a 12oz.
> glass of water every minute. It is also a "poor" shut-off valve
> because it very stiff to close the old hand wheel handle even
> with a wrench. I have some repair soldering to do elsewhere in
> the house, so I need to be able to shut off and drain the lines
> completely. My water company could come out and shut the water
> off at the street ($15 charge each time either to turn the water
> off, or on, or both, if extremely fast). The faulty old valve
> is installed with very tight proximity on rusty old/ painted
> "pipe" or tube, with hex fittings, and is too difficult to fix
> or replace without more experience and having to call the water
> company.
>
> In order to fit the new valve into the vertical run I have
> bought a wheel-type mini tube cutter. The valve installed will
> be about 3-7/8" from end to end, including outer nuts and
> compression sleeves installed. I have measured both sides for
> the distances from the outer edges to the bottoming points
> (.967" & .835", plus the 3/8" sleeve and 1/16" edge of locking
> nut), and subtracting from the 3-7/8", the valve will displace
> 1.282" of 3/4" vertical copper tubing, which I have to cut out.
>
> After I mark and cut out the 1.282" of 3/4" tubing with the mini
> wheel tube cutter (Brasscraft T007 from HD), do I need to touch
> up the ends of the freshly cut tubing? I have never done this
> before, so I can only assume that the outer edge will be
> chamfered from the wheel of the cutter, and that the end will be
> straight, and any burr will be on the inside, and irrelevant,
> except it may chip off in drinking water. The water will be
> running through the tubing at an estimated 12oz./minute, so
> should/could/would I try to touch up the ends in any way with a
> file, or sandpaper, or brush? Its the inside of a compression
> fitting, remember.
>
> Next, there are 2 ways I can insert the valve into the displaced
> area of the tubing. The first is to cut the gap larger than the
> calculated 1.282", so I can slip the nuts then sleeves on both
> pieces of Vert. tubing, and slide on end of the valve up to the
> bottoming point, then align and slip in the other end of the
> valve, and center it all. This means that neither end of the
> tubing would be at the bottoming point of the valve. I would
> just have to position the valve so it was centered and have an
> equal maximum connection join on both sides. I haven't
> calculated how much of the 3/4" tube ends would be mating in the
> bores this way, but I also have a little flex in the V-H-V
> pipe/meter/pipe/tube assembly too. I do not know how tight the
> sleeves will be on the tube, and how easy it will be to adjust
> their position during assembly. Am unsure if it would be
> advisable to put the sleeves in boiling water, or something for
> a minute to expand them prior to assembly to make them easier to
> slide. Another way is to unscrew the water meter compression
> fitting on the "out"-end connection with the nut, which gives me
> the ability to snuggly butt the tube ends to the bottoming
> points (or best possible) in the valves bores. I like this
> idea. I am at a standstill because I am not sure if there are
> going to be rubber seals or compression pieces which would need
> replacing, either I would have to get them beforehand or not use
> this method. I do not know if a permanently leaking problem
> will make it hard/impossible to re-connect it the nut and any
> washers or seals inside. To take the pressure off me, I may be
> able to stop the flow instead of using buckets/trays. I bought
> a 3/4" galvanized cap in the plumbing dept of HD which seems to
> have the same thread as the thread on the out"-end connection of
> the water meter. In pondering, the guy at HD did check it
> against another thread coming off something. I am out of my
> depth w/r/t the thread types, like NPT vs. NC, but I viewed 4
> threads (5 crests) in 4-1/2" or 4-2/3" sixteenths on a steel
> rule and a major diameter of 1.044" on a dial caliper, which is
> an estimated 1"-14, regardless of thread type The cap I got has
> a similar visual distance between 5 crests (4-1/2+), and a minor
> diameter of .934". That's a .110" (1.76/16ths) diff b/t meter's
> max and nut's min thread diameters, and a visual tpi equality of
> +/- 0.1/16". Still I am in no way sure if the cap will fit, or
> even if I should disconnect the water meter "out"-end
> connection. ALL hardware before the Vertical 3/4" tube I intend
> to splice into looks like pipe fitters "pipe" type components
> vs. copper "tube", but I'm not sure. Also, the HD guy said to
> use Teflon tape to seal the cap, but what about re-assembly and
> whether to clean or add Teflon tape, with or w/o seals or
> fittings.
> .
>
>
>
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> Usenet News==----
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> 120,000+ Newsgroups
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> Encryption =----



Posted by bent on February 27, 2007, 10:47 pm
Thanks and I'll try to get everything I can from your post, but I know any
of that. I thought I explained myself clearly. It is clear to me what to
do, and should be to you now too. I need answers to these specific
questions as much as ever now, as clear and easy as they may be. I posted
legitimate questions. I don't appreciate allegations and inappropriate
questions about it. The stuff I am have is probably "pipe" as in iron pipe,
not "tube" as in copper tube, plastic, or other, there wouldn't be hex
fitting on anything else in this situation, though I rarely have though
about such things. The unknown here is your answers to my questions. I do
not need a plumber; I already have the ball valve, I just want to know how
to use it and do these other things before I get water everywhere, by asking
simple questions. Just have to wait around a while for the simple answers.
However, I certainly don't want to get off on the wrong foot.

> You need to change the main shut off valve in my opinion.
>
> There are many ways to do so. $15 with the city sounds cheap to me as
> long as you are ready to work with them.
>
> You have never said what your piping (the stuff coming in from outside) is
> made from, it makes a huge difference. Choices: copper, pvc, iron pipe
> (probably galvanized), other. Unknown is not an acceptable answer and if
> you don't know you need a plumber. It surprises me that you have a shut
> off on the city's side of the meter. If you plan to remove the existing
> valve on threaded pipe, make sure you use a back up wrench on the pipe so
> your problems don't multiply.
>
> You describe hex fittings which might be iron pipe fittings. If someone
> else wound it on, you can wind it off or cut it off. Be prepared to cut
> the pipe or remove the old one, have a new one ready to go. I would plan
> on installing a new FIP ball valve. If you have to cut the pipe, here is
> an example of a compression valve that could work:
>
<http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catId=64&parCat=226&pid=609&ref=2>
> . You would like to find a Ford type connection. Once you have the
> water stopped, you can do whatever needs to be done.
> ______________________________
> Keep the whole world singing . . . .
> DanG (remove the sevens)
> dgriff237@7cox.net
>
>
>
>> these are the issues:
>> 1)how to finish old 3/4" copper tube cut ends I'll be putting into the
>> valve bores after using the tube cutter
>> 2)which of my two valve assembly methods to use for sliding the valves'
>> bores onto the tubes' cut ends, and ease of sleeve manipulation
>> 3)disconnection/unscrewing at the water meters "out" connection and if
>> there are any seals or fittings of any material I need to obtain, and if
>> I can (safely) use a galvanized cap temporarily to stop the leaking water
>> flow, with or without Teflon tape or plumbers dope
>>
>> I purchased a B&K 3/4" Ball Valve with compression fittings (on both
>> ends) which I want to install in a vertical stretch of 3/4" copper tubing
>> JUST AFTER the horizontally mounted ("Trident Canada/Neptune") water
>> meter. This is because my current original main water shut-off valve,
>> near front of house, up through slab, located JUST BEFORE the water meter
>> is faulty. It is faulty in that it does not shut off the water
>> completely when it is fully closed - it still flows at a rate of about a
>> 12oz. glass of water every minute. It is also a "poor" shut-off valve
>> because it very stiff to close the old hand wheel handle even with a
>> wrench. I have some repair soldering to do elsewhere in the house, so I
>> need to be able to shut off and drain the lines completely. My water
>> company could come out and shut the water off at the street ($15 charge
>> each time either to turn the water off, or on, or both, if extremely
>> fast). The faulty old valve is installed with very tight proximity on
>> rusty old/ painted "pipe" or tube, with hex fittings, and is too
>> difficult to fix or replace without more experience and having to call
>> the water company.
>>
>> In order to fit the new valve into the vertical run I have bought a
>> wheel-type mini tube cutter. The valve installed will be about 3-7/8"
>> from end to end, including outer nuts and compression sleeves installed.
>> I have measured both sides for the distances from the outer edges to the
>> bottoming points (.967" & .835", plus the 3/8" sleeve and 1/16" edge of
>> locking nut), and subtracting from the 3-7/8", the valve will displace
>> 1.282" of 3/4" vertical copper tubing, which I have to cut out.
>>
>> After I mark and cut out the 1.282" of 3/4" tubing with the mini wheel
>> tube cutter (Brasscraft T007 from HD), do I need to touch up the ends of
>> the freshly cut tubing? I have never done this before, so I can only
>> assume that the outer edge will be chamfered from the wheel of the
>> cutter, and that the end will be straight, and any burr will be on the
>> inside, and irrelevant, except it may chip off in drinking water. The
>> water will be running through the tubing at an estimated 12oz./minute, so
>> should/could/would I try to touch up the ends in any way with a file, or
>> sandpaper, or brush? Its the inside of a compression fitting, remember.
>>
>> Next, there are 2 ways I can insert the valve into the displaced area of
>> the tubing. The first is to cut the gap larger than the calculated
>> 1.282", so I can slip the nuts then sleeves on both pieces of Vert.
>> tubing, and slide on end of the valve up to the bottoming point, then
>> align and slip in the other end of the valve, and center it all. This
>> means that neither end of the tubing would be at the bottoming point of
>> the valve. I would just have to position the valve so it was centered
>> and have an equal maximum connection join on both sides. I haven't
>> calculated how much of the 3/4" tube ends would be mating in the bores
>> this way, but I also have a little flex in the V-H-V pipe/meter/pipe/tube
>> assembly too. I do not know how tight the sleeves will be on the tube,
>> and how easy it will be to adjust their position during assembly. Am
>> unsure if it would be advisable to put the sleeves in boiling water, or
>> something for a minute to expand them prior to assembly to make them
>> easier to slide. Another way is to unscrew the water meter compression
>> fitting on the "out"-end connection with the nut, which gives me the
>> ability to snuggly butt the tube ends to the bottoming points (or best
>> possible) in the valves bores. I like this idea. I am at a standstill
>> because I am not sure if there are going to be rubber seals or
>> compression pieces which would need replacing, either I would have to get
>> them beforehand or not use this method. I do not know if a permanently
>> leaking problem will make it hard/impossible to re-connect it the nut and
>> any washers or seals inside. To take the pressure off me, I may be able
>> to stop the flow instead of using buckets/trays. I bought a 3/4"
>> galvanized cap in the plumbing dept of HD which seems to have the same
>> thread as the thread on the out"-end connection of the water meter. In
>> pondering, the guy at HD did check it against another thread coming off
>> something. I am out of my depth w/r/t the thread types, like NPT vs. NC,
>> but I viewed 4 threads (5 crests) in 4-1/2" or 4-2/3" sixteenths on a
>> steel rule and a major diameter of 1.044" on a dial caliper, which is an
>> estimated 1"-14, regardless of thread type The cap I got has a similar
>> visual distance between 5 crests (4-1/2+), and a minor diameter of .934".
>> That's a .110" (1.76/16ths) diff b/t meter's max and nut's min thread
>> diameters, and a visual tpi equality of +/- 0.1/16". Still I am in no
>> way sure if the cap will fit, or even if I should disconnect the water
>> meter "out"-end connection. ALL hardware before the Vertical 3/4" tube I
>> intend to splice into looks like pipe fitters "pipe" type components vs.
>> copper "tube", but I'm not sure. Also, the HD guy said to use Teflon
>> tape to seal the cap, but what about re-assembly and whether to clean or
>> add Teflon tape, with or w/o seals or fittings.
>> .
>>
>>
>>
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>
>



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Posted by bent on February 28, 2007, 2:34 am
The lowest extreme of the current leaking valve is actually below the
finished floor height, it is very close to wall to the point that I would at
a minimum have to take the handles off the old and new valves to spin it on
& off for a re&re. Then I'd have to butcher the wall. New position is
better. The thread is painted, rusted/corroded, covered in hardened (all
length of unused thread unpenetrable with pointy stick) crud, and if
installing a new unit I would have to calculate the correct number of turns
via the length of the new fitting in order to use the old (L -shaped
mirrored through a Horiz line) run of pipe-fitted water line to get it to
the same height and tightness with the street run and the "in"-end of the
water meter. Then I'd have to call the water company to shut off the water
for day(s) causing extra money, time, and aggrevation.

So let me see if I can draw out the right answers to my original questions.
These are just the best-case answers. There are obviously other answers. I
may be partially or fundamentally wrong. Please tell me.

1)how to finish the old 3/4" copper tube cut ends I'll be putting into the
> valve bores after using the tube cutter

answer option (1i)
Unless there is a very unlikely situation which you could see and correct a
problem otherwise, after the spin cutter is used, the end is as straight as
it can be, and there will never be any burr on the outside or end. The burr
or hook on the inside is irrrelevant and you never have to worry about it
working loose and getting into any seals in any faucets anywhere else
throughout the house. Never sand, file, or wire-brush the outside diameter
of a pipe used in a compression fitting, however do ensure it is clean prior
to cutting it. Rub with a rag and Mr. Clean. [It looks smooth and round,
though discoloured]. Compression fittings should NOT leak, and are
acceptable domestic plumbing.


2)which of my two valve assembly methods to use for sliding the
>valves' bores onto the tubes' cut ends, and ease of sleeve
> manipulation

answer option (2i)
Remove the pipe/elbow/tube form the male "out"-end of the water meter after
cutting out only enough tubing neccesary to bottom the two tube ends into
the valves bores.
It is always possible to move the sleeve with some difficulty expected,
though it is rarely impossible: while being careful not to dent or scratch
it. Use a rag and screwdriver and/or edge of wrench jaws, or make a wooden
sleeve-sliding tool. If the sleeve will not fit or slide call the water
company to shut off the water, and install a soldered valve

3)disconnection/unscrewing at the water meters "out" connection
> and if there are any seals or fittings of any material I need to obtain,
> and if I can (safely) use a galvanized cap temporarily to stop the leaking
> water flow, with or without Teflon tape or plumbers dope

answer option (3i)
Just unscrew the nut connecting to the male "out"-end of the water meter,
and re-tighten it. There are no rubber or steel fittings you need to worry
about, inspect, or replace. if it is a good seal now, it will be again when
you re-connect and tighten it again
[For some reason I am willing, if not delusional, to take the chance of not
re-mating at the meter for the sake of bottoming the tube in both ends of
the ball valve bores when I cut out a segment]

You can use the galvanized cap, as it is the same thread (given your
observations are valid ), and considering there will be several liters of
water possibly it is advisable, especially if something goes wrong, though
it WON'T [Though I am really unsure what thread "name-type" the water meter
and/or the current valve is: NPT (tapered) or a straight thread such as an
ANSI/ASME nc)

With the amount of water leaking (12oz./minute) there will be NO problem
attaching the cap, or re-attaching the line due to pressure build up,

I wouldn't use teflon tape on the cap put temporarily on the "out"-end of
the water meter, because with a dish-bucket tray underneath and a rag you
will use anyways drip will be minimal. It is only advisable to use tape
when you re-tighten the pipe, but since there are no visible signs of tape
or dope now on either side, don't get too advanced.

btw, TIA everyone, and for those who caught my earlier post the BORG advise
that the right normal "bleeder knob" downstream of my current shut-off valve
gate is for back-draining the cut-off water after closing the valve.



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Posted by bent on February 28, 2007, 3:02 am

It would be possible to convince me to just replace the faulty valve with a
new ball valve in the same position with treads instead of using another
compression-type valve a few feet away. I'd have to hack out the wall,
tile around the new ball valve, and call the water company to shut off the
water for day(s). I would be willing to do it; myself, and would
appreciate anybody telling me the depending on the following:

First I'd need to know that there would be enough length of thread which is
currently covered with the current valve threads to seat a new valve. the
painted over dope edges - it looks painted-over furry, its hard! I don't
even know if I could dent it with a screwdriver and hammer, let alone clean
it off. Then I'd need to know that, I guess with dope involved, between the
2 thread ends that I would be able to orient the rotation of the old or new
assembly so that the water meter IN would line up. That is, the tightness
would need not be of great importance, and the current thread length is
sufficient to back off possibly nearly 180 degrees less than full tight. I
don't know if this is a problem with this type of thread. Not sure if they
are all the same, or what they are.. Also the overall length of the new
valve would need to be similar to the old. Otherwise I'd need to get HD, or
someone else possibly, to cut and thread new lengths of pipe. Btw, the
thread on the street pipe is below the concrete grade, and only an inch away
is dirt. This is the end of the road. I plan on filling in with screeding
and covering with a partially mudded tile soon - no weight or traffic at all
there.

> You need to change the main shut off valve in my opinion.
>
> There are many ways to do so. $15 with the city sounds cheap to me as
> long as you are ready to work with them.
>
> You have never said what your piping (the stuff coming in from outside) is
> made from, it makes a huge difference. Choices: copper, pvc, iron pipe
> (probably galvanized), other. Unknown is not an acceptable answer and if
> you don't know you need a plumber. It surprises me that you have a shut
> off on the city's side of the meter. If you plan to remove the existing
> valve on threaded pipe, make sure you use a back up wrench on the pipe so
> your problems don't multiply.
>
> You describe hex fittings which might be iron pipe fittings. If someone
> else wound it on, you can wind it off or cut it off. Be prepared to cut
> the pipe or remove the old one, have a new one ready to go. I would plan
> on installing a new FIP ball valve. If you have to cut the pipe, here is
> an example of a compression valve that could work:
>
<http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catId=64&parCat=226&pid=609&ref=2>
> . You would like to find a Ford type connection. Once you have the
> water stopped, you can do whatever needs to be done.
> ______________________________
> Keep the whole world singing . . . .
> DanG (remove the sevens)
> dgriff237@7cox.net



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