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Installing post footing in basement floor

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Installing post footing in basement floor Mark 11-02-2006
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Posted by Mark on November 6, 2006, 1:07 pm

>
> Why do you feel that the settling would occur in a few days? If you
> see the benefits of an adjustable post, why wouldn't you make the
> adjustable post permanent? Installing a temporary adjustable post
> would be making extra work for yourself and basing it on the assumption
> that all settlement would happen within your theoretical time frame.
> Nature and structures rarely cooperate with arbitrary time frames.

So is there a consensus here that my proposed new footing is going to
settle? And is settling to be expected even if I make it 2' by 2' as
Bob has proposed?

If I jack up the beam 1/4" in anticipation of settling, the result will be
damage to the structure above the beam.

If I load the new post with the beam at its current level and it
settles 1/4", the result will be damage to the structure above the beam.

The existing post has rested on the slab for 75 years, and I have
no particular reason to expect the slab to fail (or to settle) if I put the
_new_ post on the slab. Barring a slab failure, this approach produces
no damage.

So this brings me full-circle back to the issue that we were discussing
last week Except now it appears that I _can_ expect damage if I pour
a new post footing instead of resting the new post on the slab where the
old post rested.

-Mark



Posted by RicodJour on November 6, 2006, 1:39 pm
Mark wrote:
> >
> > Why do you feel that the settling would occur in a few days? If you
> > see the benefits of an adjustable post, why wouldn't you make the
> > adjustable post permanent? Installing a temporary adjustable post
> > would be making extra work for yourself and basing it on the assumption
> > that all settlement would happen within your theoretical time frame.
> > Nature and structures rarely cooperate with arbitrary time frames.
>
> So is there a consensus here that my proposed new footing is going to
> settle? And is settling to be expected even if I make it 2' by 2' as
> Bob has proposed?

If the footing is placed on undisturbed soil there is no reason that it
would settle unless it was an insufficient, small footing.

> If I jack up the beam 1/4" in anticipation of settling, the result will be
> damage to the structure above the beam.

You mentioned that the bottom of the beam had crushed fibers at the
post. You should take a laser level to the floor above and see if the
floor dips at the beam. If so, jack it up slowly to prevent cracking.
About 1/16" per day should minimize cracking. If it hasn't settled and
you don't need to straighten out the floor, then just jack up the beam
enough to take the load off of the post and maybe a bit more. 1/8" is
all you need. Again, this should be done slowly to minimize cracking -
particularly if the house has plaster walls and tiled floors above.

> If I load the new post with the beam at its current level and it
> settles 1/4", the result will be damage to the structure above the beam.

It shouldn't settle.

> The existing post has rested on the slab for 75 years, and I have
> no particular reason to expect the slab to fail (or to settle) if I put the
> _new_ post on the slab. Barring a slab failure, this approach produces
> no damage.

My original advice was to saw cut the slab and place the footing on top
of it. The footing would not have to be quite as large nor deep if it
were on top of the slab. Build shelves around the post on top of the
footing if you'd like.

> So this brings me full-circle back to the issue that we were discussing
> last week Except now it appears that I _can_ expect damage if I pour
> a new post footing instead of resting the new post on the slab where the
> old post rested.

If you continue back full circle, check out my advice on placing the
footing on top of the slab. Thanks.

R


Posted by Bob Morrison on November 6, 2006, 1:53 pm
In a previous post Mark wrote...
> So is there a consensus here that my proposed new footing is going to
> settle? And is settling to be expected even if I make it 2' by 2' as
> Bob has proposed?

No. As I just said a properly sized footing on undisturbed glacial till
will not settle.


> If I jack up the beam 1/4" in anticipation of settling, the result will be
> damage to the structure above the beam.
>
> If I load the new post with the beam at its current level and it
> settles 1/4", the result will be damage to the structure above the beam.

Raise the beam to level + a little. 1/16"-1/8" would be plenty. This has
nothing to do with settling and everything to do with being able to
install the new post cap.

> The existing post has rested on the slab for 75 years, and I have
> no particular reason to expect the slab to fail (or to settle) if I put the
> _new_ post on the slab. Barring a slab failure, this approach produces
> no damage.

Still doesn't make it the right solution. If you do the work properly and
carefully there will be no damage to the existing structure.
>
> So this brings me full-circle back to the issue that we were discussing
> last week Except now it appears that I _can_ expect damage if I pour
> a new post footing instead of resting the new post on the slab where the
> old post rested.

No. Wrong answer. If you don't want our advice then don't post
questions. I have given you a solution that has worked many times with no
damage to the existing structure. If you don't want to take the advice,
then don't. Just don't complain when you have problems down the road.

Overall, I think you are obsessing over this too much. If you had shored
the beam, cut the hole, and poured the concrete last week, you would now
be done with the project.

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Posted by Mark on November 6, 2006, 3:32 pm
>
> No. Wrong answer. If you don't want our advice then don't post
> questions. I have given you a solution that has worked many times with no
> damage to the existing structure. If you don't want to take the advice,
> then don't. Just don't complain when you have problems down the road.

Bob, I am not questioning your advice one bit. I was just following up
because someone else on the list chimed in with "It's gonna settle. . .
you'd better jack it up 1/4" first." Being prone to paranoia, I thought I
should follow up on that.

> Overall, I think you are obsessing over this too much. If you had shored
> the beam, cut the hole, and poured the concrete last week, you would now
> be done with the project.

Oh, no doubt about that. Unless of course the 2' x 2' hole filled up with
water courtesy of the current "pineapple express" we are enjoying here
in the PNW. =8-o

Hmm. . .maybe I should have you take a look at it. I actually have several
basement support issues that need attention. Are you interested in a few
hours of on-site consulting in Seattle?



Posted by Bob Morrison on November 6, 2006, 3:46 pm
In a previous post Mark wrote...
> Bob, I am not questioning your advice one bit. I was just following up
> because someone else on the list chimed in with "It's gonna settle. . .
> you'd better jack it up 1/4" first." Being prone to paranoia, I thought I
> should follow up on that.

That was bad advice. As both Rico and I have pointed out you want to be
just above level. This is usually 1/16"-1/8"
>
> Oh, no doubt about that. Unless of course the 2' x 2' hole filled up with
> water courtesy of the current "pineapple express" we are enjoying here
> in the PNW. =8-o

If that hole fills with water you may have some serious drainage problems.
BTW, thanks to that "pineapple express", my power has gone out 4 times
since last Friday afternoon.

> Hmm. . .maybe I should have you take a look at it. I actually have several
> basement support issues that need attention. Are you interested in a few
> hours of on-site consulting in Seattle?

Probably not economically worth it for either of us. However, if you want
a structural engineer to look at the situation, here is a reference list
in PDF form:

http://tinyurl.com/y8s6ne

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

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