“Main” breaker only shuts off 120v circuits.

Posted by Smartass on September 26, 2009, 3:56 am

Smartass had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/construction/Re-Main-breaker-only-shuts-off-120v-circuits-18032-.htm
:
I have posted pix, as suggested by Peter D, at my Comcast personal website:
Power Panel
http://home.comcast.net/~philip_janes/pwpimages/Power%20Panel.jpg
Panel Diagram
http://home.comcast.net/~philip_janes/pwpimages/Panel%20Diagram.jpg
Let me know if these links work.

I think you can see that it IS possible. You’d be surprised at what’s
possible in darkest Washington; the US Snail doesn’t even come here,
despite the fact that I’m next door to an elementary school, an
intermediate school and a high school.

It’s a GE model 2---probably bought from a salvage store when the house
was built in 1972 (at least that’s when the carport cement was poured). It
does appear to be wired in accordance with GE’s diagram. The only
inspection sticker in my panel is for the septic system circuit only.
Peter D, I don’t see how a 15 amp generator can be “beyond the wiring of
the house”. The only real problem (aside from code violations) is that I
can’t disconnect the 220v circuit breakers from the pole without also
disconnecting them from each other.

As for calling an electrician myself and billing the slumlord: I need to
tiptoe around such matters to avoid having my rent raised. I’m only paying
$435/month for this 18’ x 36’ wood-frame shack; that’s because I’ve always
paid the rent on time for 6 years. (I also have to spend about $10/month
on HEPA filter cartridges to control the black mold.) The slumlord is
asking $550 for the newly remodeled 16’ x 30’ house next door; he’s been
planning to put me in the little house and remodel this place when he has
enough cash. Living on so-shallow security, I can’t afford to pay more;
they say there won’t be any COLA this year or next.

Bill, instead of buying a contractor extension cord, I might want to make
a “Y” cord with a 240v male plug for the generator and two 110v male plugs
to be connected to wall outlets on the two phases of the house wiring.
Alternatively, I could short the two phases of the house wiring together
(temporarily, of course) while the “main” breaker is off and connect the
120v generator output to a single wall outlet. That would power everything
I need except for the heaters and range. I could use a kerosene space
heater, plug in a hot plate and bathe with a pot of hot water.

PeterD, you gotta be kidding about a separate wiring system for the
generator! If and when he remodels, it would make far more sense to put in
a new panel with a provision for connect a generator to it. I have seen a
panel with a recessed male 240v socket right on the outside of the box;
you just plug in a regular male-to-female 240v extension cord from the
generator. I think this socket automatically disconnects when the regular
power is restored or when you switch on the main disconnect; ideally, it
should not be possible to have both the main and backup turned on at the
same time.

For now, all I want the landlord to do is install a disconnect. I don’t
care if he puts one outside the house or if he replaces the panel. Either
way, I know he’s gonna schit a brick over the expense.

Posted by Smartass on September 25, 2009, 7:03 pm

Smartass had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/construction/Main-breaker-only-shuts-off-120v-circuits-18026-.htm
:
I have posted pix, as suggested by Peter D, at my Comcast personal website:
Power Panel:
http://home.comcast.net/~philip_janes/pwpimages/Power%20Panel.jpg
Panel Diagram:
http://home.comcast.net/~philip_janes/pwpimages/Panel%20Diagram.jpg
Let me know if these links work.

I think you can see that what I have described IS possible. You’d be
surprised at what’s possible in darkest Washington; the US Snail doesn’t
even come here, despite the fact that I’m next door to an elementary
school, an intermediate school and a high school. I guess it is rural,
though; my neighbor shot a bear in his yard last week.

It’s a GE model 2---probably bought from a salvage store when the house
was built in 1972 (at least that’s when the carport cement was poured). It
does appear to be wired in accordance with GE’s diagram. The only
inspection sticker in my panel is for the septic system circuit only.

PeterD, I don’t see how a 15 amp generator can be “beyond the wiring of
the house”. The only real problem (aside from code violations) is that I
can’t disconnect the 220v circuit breakers from the pole without also
disconnecting them from each other.

As for calling an electrician myself and billing the slumlord: I need to
tiptoe around such matters to avoid having my rent raised. I’m only paying
$435/month for this 18’ x 36’ wood-frame shack; that’s because I’ve always
paid the rent on time for 6 years. (I also have to spend about $10/month
on HEPA filter cartridges to control the black mold.) The slumlord is
asking $550 for the newly remodeled 16’ x 30’ house next door; he’s been
planning to put me in the little house and remodel this place when he has
enough cash. Living on so-shallow security, I can’t afford to pay more;
they say there won’t be any COLA this year or next.

Bill, instead of buying a contractor extension cord, I might want to make
a “Y” cord with a 240v male plug for the generator and two 110v male plugs
to be connected to wall outlets on the two phases of the house wiring.
Alternatively, I could short the two phases of the house wiring together
(temporarily, of course) while the “main” breaker is off and connect the
120v generator output to a single wall outlet. That would power everything
I need except for the heaters and range. I could use a kerosene space
heater, plug in a hot plate and bathe with a pot of hot water.

PeterD, you gotta be kidding about a separate wiring system for the
generator! If and when he remodels, it would make far more sense to put in
a new panel with a provision for connect a generator to it. I have seen a
panel with a recessed male 240v socket right on the outside of the box;
you just plug in a regular male-to-female 240v extension cord from the
generator. I think this socket automatically disconnects when the regular
power is restored or when you switch on the main disconnect; ideally, it
should not be possible to have both the main and backup turned on at the
same time.

For now, all I want the landlord to do is install a disconnect. I don’t
care if he puts one outside the house or if he replaces the panel. Either
way, I know he’s gonna schit a brick over the expense, and the last thing
he wants is have the place inspected.
-------------------------------------
Retired tech.\//.

Posted by PeterD on September 26, 2009, 10:13 am

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:03:15 +0000,
anniemalover_at_hotmail_dot_com@foo.com (Smartass) wrote:

>Smartass had written this in response to
>http://www.thestuccocompany.com/construction/Main-breaker-only-shuts-off-120v-circuits-18026-.htm
> :
>I have posted pix, as suggested by Peter D, at my Comcast personal website:
>Power Panel:
>http://home.comcast.net/~philip_janes/pwpimages/Power%20Panel.jpg
>Panel Diagram:
>http://home.comcast.net/~philip_janes/pwpimages/Panel%20Diagram.jpg
>Let me know if these links work.

The images work. I'm astounded, and appologize for doubting your
story! That is the most incredible mess I've ever seen.

First, and formost, the setup is incredibly dangerous. Second, you
absolutely should not try to interface with that wiring at all. Just
use an extension cord. Also, make sure you have full smoke/fire
detectors, and several fire extingushers on hand.

What is missing is that whoever wired the box originally did things
terribly wrong, including selecting the wrong box for the job. This
box was intended to be used as a sub-panel, fed from a breaker from
the main panel, not as a main panel.

>I think you can see that what I have described IS possible. You’d be
>surprised at what’s possible in darkest Washington; the US Snail doesn’t
>even come here, despite the fact that I’m next door to an elementary
>school, an intermediate school and a high school. I guess it is rural,
>though; my neighbor shot a bear in his yard last week.
>It’s a GE model 2---probably bought from a salvage store when the house
>was built in 1972

It is likely older than 1972, but regardless is the wrong box for the
job.

>(at least that’s when the carport cement was poured). It

I'd guess possibly the house is older than the carport!

>does appear to be wired in accordance with GE’s diagram. The only
>inspection sticker in my panel is for the septic system circuit only.
>PeterD, I don’t see how a 15 amp generator can be “beyond the wiring of
>the house”.

First, see my appology above. Second, anything is beyond the wiring of
this house at this stage!

>The only real problem (aside from code violations) is that I
>can’t disconnect the 220v circuit breakers from the pole without also
>disconnecting them from each other.
>As for calling an electrician myself and billing the slumlord: I need to
>tiptoe around such matters to avoid having my rent raised. I’m only paying
>$435/month for this 18’ x 36’ wood-frame shack; that’s because I’ve always
>paid the rent on time for 6 years. (I also have to spend about $10/month
>on HEPA filter cartridges to control the black mold.) The slumlord is
>asking $550 for the newly remodeled 16’ x 30’ house next door; he’s been
>planning to put me in the little house and remodel this place when he has
>enough cash. Living on so-shallow security, I can’t afford to pay more;
>they say there won’t be any COLA this year or next.
>Bill, instead of buying a contractor extension cord, I might want to make
>a “Y” cord with a 240v male plug for the generator and two 110v male plugs
>to be connected to wall outlets on the two phases of the house wiring.
>Alternatively, I could short the two phases of the house wiring together
>(temporarily, of course) while the “main” breaker is off and connect the
>120v generator output to a single wall outlet. That would power everything
>I need except for the heaters and range. I could use a kerosene space
>heater, plug in a hot plate and bathe with a pot of hot water.
>PeterD, you gotta be kidding about a separate wiring system for the
>generator!

I was... But seriously, just use an extension cord (12 gauge) and
don't try to feed/backfeed the existing house's wiring. Doing so is
both a violation of law (lack of a switch over box) and a major safety
issue.

BTW, it *looks* like those 30 amp 240 volt breakers are wired with
12AWG... If so that's another fire hazard, they need to be at least 10
AWG. I spotted the drier breaker that circuit doesn't look large
enough.

It looks (very hard to tell) like breaker #7 is wired with white
wires. Is that the image angle or are there white wires on that
breaker?

>If and when he remodels, it would make far more sense to put in
>a new panel with a provision for connect a generator to it.

Any remodling would require a proper box.

> I have seen a
>panel with a recessed male 240v socket right on the outside of the box;
>you just plug in a regular male-to-female 240v extension cord from the
>generator. I think this socket automatically disconnects when the regular
>power is restored or when you switch on the main disconnect; ideally, it
>should not be possible to have both the main and backup turned on at the
>same time.
>For now, all I want the landlord to do is install a disconnect.

Don't EVER forget you are the one living in this house! If/when there
is a fire you, not the landlord will be the one hurt or killed. Make
100% sure you have renter's insurance as well.

> I don’t
>care if he puts one outside the house or if he replaces the panel. Either
>way, I know he’s gonna schit a brick over the expense, and the last thing
>he wants is have the place inspected.

Any change done legally will have to be inspected.

>-------------------------------------
>Retired tech.\//.

Get a battery lamp, just use that when the power failes. If the
failure is extnded go to a shelter.

Posted by Bill on September 26, 2009, 11:09 am

Either install a proper transfer switch for the generator and bring the
wiring up to code, or use an extension cord.

If you connect the generator to the house wiring and the there is still a
connection to the utility electric system, the electricity would work
"backwards". It would send electricity out through the transformer on the
utility pole, then this would step up the voltage to thousands of volts and
be sent out on the electric lines!

Electric company employees working to repair the electric lines could be
electrocuted by your generator! (Not to mention anyone else like kids, fire
department, etc. who could come in contact with down lines!)

This has happened in the past, so that is why there are harsh penalties for
doing this and why permits are required - proper transfer switches and all
associated wiring brought up to code.

Posted by Smartass on September 26, 2009, 2:01 pm

Smartass had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/construction/Re-Main-breaker-only-shuts-off-120v-circuits-18042-.htm
:

Sorry about the double post; I didn’t know where to look for the next-page
link (new to the board). There doesn’t appear to be any way to edit or
delete my own posts.

I shall raise this issue with my landlord when the time is right. The
other house on this lot has been vacant since March, and I don’t think the
owner has collected any rent from it since January. In that time, he has
poured several $thousand and many days of his own labor into renovation on
it. It should be occupied any day, now. So the first time it starts
returning his investment should be a good time to tell him about my little
problem. Anyway, I’m ashamed that I didn’t discover this problem when I
moved in 6 years ago. On the other hand, the landlord should have
discovered it when bought the place 3 years ago.

Hopefully, there won’t be any outages until the first winter storm, which
can occur as early as October; the worst one on record was Columbus Day,
1964. I’ll probably take your advice, guys, and just use extension cords
and power strips. The generator only has one 120v outlet, which can only
deliver half the rated power of the generator. If I want to get 100%, I’ll
have to make an adapter from 220v to two 120v extension cords on opposite
phases. As for feeding back into the transformer, I know better; that’s
what prompted me to start this discussion in the first place. Anyway,
There are several other houses connected to the transformer, so I’m sure
my generator’s circuit breaker would immediately trip if I did that.

Page 2 of 2 << first < 1 2

Similar Threads	Posted
Electrical planning- kitchen- # of circuits	February 1, 2008, 7:27 am
Breaker panel installed height	June 6, 2007, 9:10 am
Double Pole Circuit Breaker Not working	April 13, 2009, 7:11 pm
Breaker panel, code for height from floor	October 26, 2009, 9:38 am
Pressure WRT Main Body	November 28, 2007, 12:53 am
Main Power Panel about face	July 15, 2006, 1:40 pm
electrical service/main feed	October 23, 2006, 12:52 pm
Replacing old main drain pipe	August 11, 2007, 3:05 am
Lightning Protection System for a Home Circuit Breaker Panel	July 2, 2006, 3:38 pm
main water valve is not shutting completely	February 17, 2007, 10:49 pm

“Main” breaker only shuts off 120v circuits. - Page 2