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Posted by Avon_Jeepman on February 1, 2009, 12:18 pm
Avon_Jeepman had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/construction/Re-Raising-the-ceiling-in-an-existing-barn-16299-.htm
I have said several times that I plan on going back to the structural
engineer so I will avaoid that topic for now.....
I have thought about removing the flooring as well and moving up one joist
at a time. Much safer, but more time consuming. The major hurdle there
is that in those days barns were built while the wood was still wet. So
how do pull the nails out of the flooring? I have been pondering that one
for months.
The barn has about 5 courses of block above ground. Then there is a sill
plate that the ROUND (not gambrel) rafters attach to. The ceiling is
about 3-1/2 feet above the cement blocks and attached to the rafters at
that height. On the inside they sit on top of 2 beams that run the length
of the barn. I have several pictures and I even created a 3d Cad drawing
of the barn. How do I post them on this site?
That comment about the columns not being in line does not apply to
me....If you go back through the replies you will find that someone else
commenting about thier barn and how it was similar yet different. That is
where you got the column issue from. I do not plan on changung the column
location unless it is required.
DOC
MN, USA
-------------------------------------
dpb wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> Avon_Jeepman wrote:
> ...[top posting repaired--dpb]...
>> PeterD wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>> This sounds very difficult to do, at least safely. How are the
>>> roof
>>> rafters done? Trusses, or what? You cut out that 'floor' you
>>> will
>>> probably find it is what is holding the building together.
>> The the rafters are 1x10 boards nailed together and cut at a
>> radius.
>> The radius starts from the top of the cement blocks that the frame
>> sits on and continues up to the peak. So I guess the technical
>> term
>> would be that they are laminated (just like laminated posts for my
>> pole shed).
>> ...
>> A Structural Engineer has already told me that the floor being
>> higher
>> will actually make the building stronger. Of course I plan to go
>> back
>> and make sure I didn't forget something once I figure out the
>> mechanics of doing the actual lift. Raising the floor one section
>> at
>> a time leaves the end walls and the remaining sections in place as
>> well. That should retain the structural integrety of the building.
>>
>> Anyway, I am looking for input from someone that has actually done
>> this or seen this done before. There are several pictures online
>> of
>> barns like mine where the entire ceiling has been removed on round
>> roof barns like mine. The website shows that customer now uses the
>> barn for storing a combine. Anyway, I just want to raise the floor
>> up, not remove it entirely and I am sure that there are many that
>> have done that before.
>> ...
> Well, you didn't say you had a block building... :(
> A link to one of those pictures (or even better, to a picture of yours)
> would undoubtedly help at least some...
> I just looked at it here again a little earlier this morning -- it
> would
> still be a major project here because as noted before the columns
> aren't
> in line so there would have to be significant structural
> modifications
> to change the load bearing locations to transfer that load from
> upstairs
> to the ground.
> But, if that weren't a problem (and the bottom walls were block instead
> of frame so the side loading isn't such an issue), what I'd do w/ this
> one would be to pull up the flooring in the mow and stack it somewhere
> out of the way. Then, as another poster noted, I'd simply work my way
> down from one end to the other a rafter at a time. Since these side
> walls are vertical the joists are attached to the 2x6 studs w/ a
> supporting rim joist under them. They could be individually removed,
> raised and then the rim joist added last.
> In your case what I don't understand from your description would be the
> hanging the outer end from the rafter -- that doesn't sound nearly as
> strong as the current setting on top a block wall and the added load
> will add additional outward load as the force will be transmitted along
> the length of the rafter which is, as you say curved pointing out.
> What is the construction detail at this point this engineer is
> recommending and how does he propose to transfer the new load and hold
> the top of the wall?
> If it weren't for the column alignment issue raised above, I'd feel far
> more comfortable w/ the gambrel roof here than w/ the round roof you
> have as I'd only be changing the location vertically, not the direction
> of the loading.
> I'd want to see engineered drawings and some load calc's before
> proceeding but the mechanics once that were done I'd do as
> outlined--I'd
> certainly not attempt to take an entire floor section and raise it as a
> piece--simply too much rigging for a one-man effort; that's a
> housemover/large construction job way of attacking it imo.
> --
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Posted by dpb on February 1, 2009, 1:20 pm
Avon_Jeepman wrote:
...
show/hide quoted text
> I have thought about removing the flooring as well and moving up one joist
> at a time. Much safer, but more time consuming. The major hurdle there
> is that in those days barns were built while the wood was still wet. So
> how do pull the nails out of the flooring? I have been pondering that one
> for months.
What kind of wood (both flooring and joists) and what is the flooring
(T&G, flat-sawn, 1x, 2x, ???...)?
"How" depends on "what"... :)
show/hide quoted text
> The barn has about 5 courses of block above ground. Then there is a sill
> plate that the ROUND (not gambrel) rafters attach to. The ceiling is
> about 3-1/2 feet above the cement blocks and attached to the rafters at
> that height. On the inside they sit on top of 2 beams that run the length
> of the barn. I have several pictures and I even created a 3d Cad drawing
> of the barn. How do I post them on this site?
>
> That comment about the columns not being in line does not apply to
> me....If you go back through the replies you will find that someone else
> commenting about thier barn and how it was similar yet different. That is
> where you got the column issue from. I do not plan on changung the column
> location unless it is required.
...
That "someone else" was I and I understand it's not the same...I was,
indeed, just commenting on similarities and differences...the column
alignment problem is, indeed, limited to my situation and not yours; I
understand that. "Just talkin'..." :)
Hmmm...that's another _slight_ detail missing in earlier descriptions...
:) -- that the outer floor joists are currently hanging rather than
sitting. That adds credence that they were, then, intended to act as
load-bearing other than the roof only. If so, then ensuring they're
reattached at the higher point at least as securely as at present should
be adequate as well as long as the rafter structure is at least as heavy
going up and wasn't just "beefed up" at the lower end.
Those additional details make a big difference in the picture I had and
add confidence the advice previously given is ok with the caveat noted.
That's a major difference in the structural design of the building
than as envisioned originally from your description.
As far as the overall "how", it would depend on the factor of whether
you can afford some help or simply hire it out, how important it is that
it get done in some particular amount of time, etc., etc., etc., that
are questions all out of anybody else's ability to answer. I was
assuming you were intending it as a self-help project at minimal
out-of-pocket cost; hence my suggestion as how I'd approach it from that
basis.
I'm just thinking of the $$ we put into the old barn here w/ a new roof
and repair of siding and some relatively minor structural work (sill
plate on half one side and one end, sisters on some bottom ends of
studs, etc., etc., ... W/ one hand at moderate wages (not minimum, but
he was well better than that) and a minimal amount of volunteers
(getting distracted by the pheasant hunting kept the volunteers from
spending much of their actual time on the roof :( :) ), it was still
about $40k. There's really no way could possibly economically justify
the expense other than it was/is the home place and one of the few
remaining wood barns in the County and I couldn't stand the thought of
letting it go. It simply isn't functional for today's farm equipment
and since the mules and draft horses are no longer used and we quit
milking ages ago, there's really no actual functional use other than
storage and have my woodworking shop equipment in it.
As for posting; a.b.c is a usenet text group. There are any number of
free hosting sites to use; pick one and post a link.
Good luck, sounds like fun time...
|
|
Posted by dpb on February 1, 2009, 1:47 pm
dpb wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> Avon_Jeepman wrote:
> ...
>> I have thought about removing the flooring as well and moving up one
>> joist
>> at a time. Much safer, but more time consuming. The major hurdle there
>> is that in those days barns were built while the wood was still wet. So
>> how do pull the nails out of the flooring? I have been pondering that
>> one
>> for months.
>
> What kind of wood (both flooring and joists) and what is the flooring
> (T&G, flat-sawn, 1x, 2x, ???...)?
>
> "How" depends on "what"... :)
...
I intended to add that you'll have to remove some at the edges no matter
what as it's narrower as you go up. So, you'll have an area of
sacrificial material that you can experiment with.
If nothing else, I'd think you could get a little clearance and use a
sawzall from below between the joist and the bottom of the floor.
|
|
Posted by Avon_Jeepman on February 2, 2009, 12:22 am
Avon_Jeepman had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/construction/Re-Raising-the-ceiling-in-an-existing-barn-16335-.htm
Sorry, I got confused about who said what.
The joists are 3" wide and 8" tall. Some of them look like they could be
oak. I am not sure what type of wood they are though, just that it is
tough to drive a nail into them.
The florring is 1" tongue and groove. I was able to pound them loose from
the bottom with a sledge hammer. I just did a little as an experiment. I
tried earlier in the middle of the board with no success. This morning I
started at and end and them came up really well.
Thanks,
DOC
MN, USA
-------------------------------------
dpb wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> Avon_Jeepman wrote:
> ...
>> I have thought about removing the flooring as well and moving up
>> one joist
>> at a time. Much safer, but more time consuming. The major hurdle
>> there
>> is that in those days barns were built while the wood was still
>> wet. So
>> how do pull the nails out of the flooring? I have been pondering
>> that one
>> for months.
> What kind of wood (both flooring and joists) and what is the flooring
> (T&G, flat-sawn, 1x, 2x, ???...)?
> "How" depends on "what"... :)
>> The barn has about 5 courses of block above ground. Then there is
>> a sill
>> plate that the ROUND (not gambrel) rafters attach to. The ceiling
>> is
>> about 3-1/2 feet above the cement blocks and attached to the
>> rafters at
>> that height. On the inside they sit on top of 2 beams that run
>> the length
>> of the barn. I have several pictures and I even created a 3d Cad
>> drawing
>> of the barn. How do I post them on this site?
>>
>> That comment about the columns not being in line does not apply to
>> me....If you go back through the replies you will find that
>> someone else
>> commenting about thier barn and how it was similar yet different.
>> That is
>> where you got the column issue from. I do not plan on changung
>> the column
>> location unless it is required.
>> ...
> That "someone else" was I and I understand it's not the
> same...I was,
> indeed, just commenting on similarities and differences...the column
> alignment problem is, indeed, limited to my situation and not yours; I
> understand that. "Just talkin'..." :)
> Hmmm...that's another _slight_ detail missing in earlier
> descriptions...
> :) -- that the outer floor joists are currently hanging rather than
> sitting. That adds credence that they were, then, intended to act as
> load-bearing other than the roof only. If so, then ensuring they're
> reattached at the higher point at least as securely as at present
> should
> be adequate as well as long as the rafter structure is at least as
> heavy
> going up and wasn't just "beefed up" at the lower end.
> Those additional details make a big difference in the picture I had and
> add confidence the advice previously given is ok with the caveat noted.
> That's a major difference in the structural design of the building
> than as envisioned originally from your description.
> As far as the overall "how", it would depend on the factor of
> whether
> you can afford some help or simply hire it out, how important it is
> that
> it get done in some particular amount of time, etc., etc., etc., that
> are questions all out of anybody else's ability to answer. I was
> assuming you were intending it as a self-help project at minimal
> out-of-pocket cost; hence my suggestion as how I'd approach it from
> that
> basis.
> I'm just thinking of the $$ we put into the old barn here w/ a new roof
> and repair of siding and some relatively minor structural work (sill
> plate on half one side and one end, sisters on some bottom ends of
> studs, etc., etc., ... W/ one hand at moderate wages (not minimum, but
> he was well better than that) and a minimal amount of volunteers
> (getting distracted by the pheasant hunting kept the volunteers from
> spending much of their actual time on the roof :( :) ), it was still
> about $40k. There's really no way could possibly economically justify
> the expense other than it was/is the home place and one of the few
> remaining wood barns in the County and I couldn't stand the thought of
> letting it go. It simply isn't functional for today's farm equipment
> and since the mules and draft horses are no longer used and we quit
> milking ages ago, there's really no actual functional use other than
> storage and have my woodworking shop equipment in it.
> As for posting; a.b.c is a usenet text group. There are any number of
> free hosting sites to use; pick one and post a link.
> Good luck, sounds like fun time...
> --
> --
##-----------------------------------------------##
Delivered via
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/
Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
Web
and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.building.construction - 15547
messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##
|
|
Posted by dpb on January 31, 2009, 9:23 am
Avon_Jeepman wrote:
...
show/hide quoted text
> I have a project that I have am researching before beginning. I have a
> 34' x 53' barn that has 7 foot ceilings on the main floor and I want to
> raise them up to about 11 feet. The joists are nailed to the rafters on
> the outside wall and also supported by a 2 beams that run down the middle
> of the barn. These beams rest on posts that in turn are on concrete pads.
>
> If I cut the joist off near the rafter and raise the floor up, the joists
> will again be more than long enough (because the roof is radiused).
...
Our barn is 38' x 64' w/ similar mow floor height -- now that we no
longer do loose hay it would be nice to be able to make a similar
rearrangement, but I don't think it would be at all cost effective
unless don't care anything at all about the aesthetics of an old barn
(and really not even then).
I'm sure there must be an effective rim joist around the outside as well
and I suppose it's possible w/ the narrower barn there is only a single
center beam. Where does the roof line meet the walls -- at the present
mow floor (unusual, that would give essentially zero head room) or at
some height above? (It's 14' sidewall height here for comparison.) Is
it actually a domed roof or a gambrel? How are the lower wall braced
for wind load (you won't have the wind routinely we do in SW KS, but
it's still a big building and there's a lot of lateral load to resist.
The biggest rub here would be that their are two ridge beams for the
roof gambrels and that load is transferred by the columns in the mow to
the beams below but the columns on the bottom level aren't in line with
the columns above in order to have more unobstructed center space in the
mow but the necessary width on both sides of the center aisle below for
the horse stalls and milking stall below.
Anyway, have wished for the additional headroom here quite often as well
but it just ain't practical unless you got's really deep pockets methinks.
But, you definitely need some competent structural evaluation and
analysis about what would be required to hold the thing together while
making such a modification.
|
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> ...[top posting repaired--dpb]...
>> PeterD wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>> This sounds very difficult to do, at least safely. How are the
>>> roof
>>> rafters done? Trusses, or what? You cut out that 'floor' you
>>> will
>>> probably find it is what is holding the building together.
>> The the rafters are 1x10 boards nailed together and cut at a
>> radius.
>> The radius starts from the top of the cement blocks that the frame
>> sits on and continues up to the peak. So I guess the technical
>> term
>> would be that they are laminated (just like laminated posts for my
>> pole shed).
>> ...
>> A Structural Engineer has already told me that the floor being
>> higher
>> will actually make the building stronger. Of course I plan to go
>> back
>> and make sure I didn't forget something once I figure out the
>> mechanics of doing the actual lift. Raising the floor one section
>> at
>> a time leaves the end walls and the remaining sections in place as
>> well. That should retain the structural integrety of the building.
>>
>> Anyway, I am looking for input from someone that has actually done
>> this or seen this done before. There are several pictures online
>> of
>> barns like mine where the entire ceiling has been removed on round
>> roof barns like mine. The website shows that customer now uses the
>> barn for storing a combine. Anyway, I just want to raise the floor
>> up, not remove it entirely and I am sure that there are many that
>> have done that before.
>> ...
> Well, you didn't say you had a block building... :(
> A link to one of those pictures (or even better, to a picture of yours)
> would undoubtedly help at least some...
> I just looked at it here again a little earlier this morning -- it
> would
> still be a major project here because as noted before the columns
> aren't
> in line so there would have to be significant structural
> modifications
> to change the load bearing locations to transfer that load from
> upstairs
> to the ground.
> But, if that weren't a problem (and the bottom walls were block instead
> of frame so the side loading isn't such an issue), what I'd do w/ this
> one would be to pull up the flooring in the mow and stack it somewhere
> out of the way. Then, as another poster noted, I'd simply work my way
> down from one end to the other a rafter at a time. Since these side
> walls are vertical the joists are attached to the 2x6 studs w/ a
> supporting rim joist under them. They could be individually removed,
> raised and then the rim joist added last.
> In your case what I don't understand from your description would be the
> hanging the outer end from the rafter -- that doesn't sound nearly as
> strong as the current setting on top a block wall and the added load
> will add additional outward load as the force will be transmitted along
> the length of the rafter which is, as you say curved pointing out.
> What is the construction detail at this point this engineer is
> recommending and how does he propose to transfer the new load and hold
> the top of the wall?
> If it weren't for the column alignment issue raised above, I'd feel far
> more comfortable w/ the gambrel roof here than w/ the round roof you
> have as I'd only be changing the location vertically, not the direction
> of the loading.
> I'd want to see engineered drawings and some load calc's before
> proceeding but the mechanics once that were done I'd do as
> outlined--I'd
> certainly not attempt to take an entire floor section and raise it as a
> piece--simply too much rigging for a one-man effort; that's a
> housemover/large construction job way of attacking it imo.
> --