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Re: switch grounded outlet combo question. Dennis 11-19-2007
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Posted by Dennis on November 19, 2007, 7:37 pm
The white wires are not neutrals (a neutral only occurs in a 240 volt
circuit and carries the unbalanced load of the two legs.) And most likely,
one or two of the white wires is what is called a switch leg, that is, it is
actually a ungrounded (or black) wire run to the switch to be "switched".
(But actually it's a "hot" wire in disguise).

As two others have told you, get someone knowledgeable as you could be very
well setting up a shock hazard in your home. It's important that certain
wires be isolated from the metal of the fixtures and appliances, others
intentionally connected to ground, and only someone with experience can tell
the difference.

What if someone were to be seriously shocked while changing a light bulb due
to your inexperience? It's not worth the low cost of being safe.


>I have a single pole switch outlet combo device in my kitchen. The
> switch started to make a loud pop when the light was turned off, not
> on. I tried to replace the device and here is what happened. There
> are three wires in the box. I know the one hot and the other are
> neutral. No ground wire. I wired hot to hot, and the neutrals to the
> other two silver and then light brass screw. Powered on and the
> switch worked, no plug, unless switch was on. Reversed the two
> neutrals and now only outlet works, no switch. What did I do. There
> are two screws for the hot, one labeled common and the other unlabeled
> and they are both connected by a brass tab. Help. The previous combo
> was not grounded, two pronger, 10A. New is grounded 15A.
>



Posted by James Sweet on November 19, 2007, 7:45 pm

> The white wires are not neutrals (a neutral only occurs in a 240 volt
> circuit and carries the unbalanced load of the two legs.) And most likely,
> one or two of the white wires is what is called a switch leg, that is, it
> is actually a ungrounded (or black) wire run to the switch to be
> "switched". (But actually it's a "hot" wire in disguise).
>


Neutral wires are present in 120V circuits as well, yes neutral and ground
busses are bonded together in the panel, but the white wire is still called
neutral though it carries the full return current. A white wire can be hot
if used in a switch drop or to a 240v appliance receptacle but in that case
there should be a band of black or red tape around it to mark it as such,
though in most houses I've worked on they've skipped that.

Note that this assumes USA, I'm not as knowledgeable about the electrical
codes in other countries.



Posted by Dennis on November 21, 2007, 8:12 pm
> Neutral wires are present in 120V circuits as well, yes neutral and ground
> busses are bonded together in the panel, but the white wire is still
> called neutral though it carries the full return current. A white wire can
> be hot if used in a switch drop or to a 240v appliance receptacle but in
> that case there should be a band of black or red tape around it to mark it
> as such, though in most houses I've worked on they've skipped that.

A lot of people refer to the white as a neutral, but offically in the NEC is
referred to as an "identified" conductor.

A neutral is only present in a 240 v or higher branch circuit or feeder. (I
think that's where a lot of confusion comes in as the potential between a
240 volt leg and the neutral is 120 volts, however that's not a branch
circuit in and of itself). Because a neutral carries only an unbalanced
load, it's allowed to be reduced in size from the ungrounded phase
conductors. See 220.61 where the NEC talks about how to calculate the
unbalanced load on a neutral. A grounded white wire in a 120 volt circuit
always carries the full load of the circuit and is sized the same as an
ungrounded conductor.

I pulled this off of Mike Holt's website (read carefully, the 2-wire circuit
in the 2nd para is a standard 120 volt circuit):
Neutral Conductor. The IEEE dictionary defines a neutral conductor as the
conductor with an equal potential difference between it and

the other output conductors of a 3- or 4-wire system. Therefore, a neutral
conductor is the white/gray wire of a 3-wire single-phase

120/240V system, or of a 4-wire three-phase 120/208V or 277/480V system.

Since a neutral conductor must have equal potential between it and all
ungrounded conductors in a 3- or 4-wire system, the white wire

of a 2-wire circuit, and the white wire from a 4-wire three-phase 120/240V
delta-connected system are not neutral conductors-they're

grounded conductors.


Anyway, I believe that the white IS called a neutral in the UK, but not here
in the US (not by the NEC anyways).



Posted by Jamie on November 21, 2007, 9:24 pm
Dennis wrote:

>>Neutral wires are present in 120V circuits as well, yes neutral and ground
>>busses are bonded together in the panel, but the white wire is still
>>called neutral though it carries the full return current. A white wire can
>>be hot if used in a switch drop or to a 240v appliance receptacle but in
>>that case there should be a band of black or red tape around it to mark it
>>as such, though in most houses I've worked on they've skipped that.
>
>
> A lot of people refer to the white as a neutral, but offically in the NEC is
> referred to as an "identified" conductor.
>
> A neutral is only present in a 240 v or higher branch circuit or feeder. (I
> think that's where a lot of confusion comes in as the potential between a
> 240 volt leg and the neutral is 120 volts, however that's not a branch
> circuit in and of itself). Because a neutral carries only an unbalanced
> load, it's allowed to be reduced in size from the ungrounded phase
> conductors. See 220.61 where the NEC talks about how to calculate the
> unbalanced load on a neutral. A grounded white wire in a 120 volt circuit
> always carries the full load of the circuit and is sized the same as an
> ungrounded conductor.
>
> I pulled this off of Mike Holt's website (read carefully, the 2-wire circuit
> in the 2nd para is a standard 120 volt circuit):
> Neutral Conductor. The IEEE dictionary defines a neutral conductor as the
> conductor with an equal potential difference between it and
>
> the other output conductors of a 3- or 4-wire system. Therefore, a neutral
> conductor is the white/gray wire of a 3-wire single-phase
>
> 120/240V system, or of a 4-wire three-phase 120/208V or 277/480V system.
>
> Since a neutral conductor must have equal potential between it and all
> ungrounded conductors in a 3- or 4-wire system, the white wire
>
> of a 2-wire circuit, and the white wire from a 4-wire three-phase 120/240V
> delta-connected system are not neutral conductors-they're
>
> grounded conductors.
>
>
> Anyway, I believe that the white IS called a neutral in the UK, but not here
> in the US (not by the NEC anyways).
>
>
in 120 volt outlet circuits its white.
Even in side of industrial panels for 120 volt control wire the
neutral is white or though, it really does not have to be white in
side of panels but it sure make's life much easier. Gray and yellow
isn't used much any more..

The neutral is always equal in load capacity and length of the high
side.
It's tied to ground only in the service panel where the earth
electrode is bonded near by. THe neutral shall never make an earth
connection else where.

All runs of H/N to each outlet needs to be of equal length. This is
very important especially when it comes to CFCI and arc breakers.



--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5


Posted by Art on November 22, 2007, 10:43 am
Jamie wrote:

> All runs of H/N to each outlet needs to be of equal length. This is
> very important especially when it comes to CFCI and arc breakers.
>
>
>

Why do they need to be of equal length? In some cases the hot runs to a
switch and then back to the outlet making it quite a bit longer. In a
completed circuit I can't see how it could matter... ?


--
Art

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