SIMPLE QUESTION REGARDING GRAB BARS

Posted by Tim Conde on October 27, 2009, 2:56 pm

Hi everyone:

I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
residence. There was no other work done. The only work done was to take 4-5
grab bars out of their boxes and screw them into the wall studs, pick up
the trash and leave. End of story. There were two complaints, one was that I
installed bars vertically and not horizontally (no room and no studs
behind), then the state added that I had not pulled a permit. Grab bars can
be installed any which way you want, verytically, horizontally, angled, etc.
so that went nowhere but this "no permit" thing really startled me. I have
NEVER pulled a permit for grab bars and don't know why I would have to since
I am not altering the structure in any way.

Anyone have any info?

Thanks
Tim

Posted by jloomis on October 27, 2009, 3:51 pm

My Word!
Tell them to install the dam grab bars........

It sounds like you did the right thing.

You know, in a wall, that you cannot see in, who knows where any attachment
is?
I run in to this all the time....
sure you can tear down the wall and install blocking......what a mess......
Look for studs with a wall finder........
thru bolt, glue screw, you name it.......
I do not know what to say.....welcome to the ADA and making a bathroom safe
for everyone.
Is this Calif.? State Con. Board?
john

> Hi everyone:
> I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
> because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
> residence. There was no other work done. The only work done was to take
> 4-5 grab bars out of their boxes and screw them into the wall studs, pick
> up the trash and leave. End of story. There were two complaints, one was
> that I installed bars vertically and not horizontally (no room and no
> studs behind), then the state added that I had not pulled a permit. Grab
> bars can be installed any which way you want, verytically, horizontally,
> angled, etc. so that went nowhere but this "no permit" thing really
> startled me. I have NEVER pulled a permit for grab bars and don't know why
> I would have to since I am not altering the structure in any way.
> Anyone have any info?
> Thanks
> Tim

Posted by Tim Conde on October 27, 2009, 4:25 pm

Yep. California State Board. The ADA has no impact on residential. None.
Anytime anyone gets out the ADA and starts quoting chapter and verse I have
to stop them and inform that that the ADA doesn't apply. In this case, the
state board supposedly retained an "expert" who put in a report that the
grab bars, according to the manufacturer, HAD TO BE installed horizontally.
I can't wait to see that. Also that I had to have a permit to install them.
If I opened walls, installed blocking, etc. yeah, OK,maybe. But screwed them
into a wall? So I can't install a paper towel holder or a towel bar without
a permit, too? Sure. Makes sense...

> My Word!
> Tell them to install the dam grab bars........
> It sounds like you did the right thing.
> You know, in a wall, that you cannot see in, who knows where any
> attachment is?
> I run in to this all the time....
> sure you can tear down the wall and install blocking......what a
> mess......
> Look for studs with a wall finder........
> thru bolt, glue screw, you name it.......
> I do not know what to say.....welcome to the ADA and making a bathroom
> safe for everyone.
> Is this Calif.? State Con. Board?
> john

>> Hi everyone:
>> I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
>> because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
>> residence. There was no other work done. The only work done was to take
>> 4-5 grab bars out of their boxes and screw them into the wall studs,
>> pick up the trash and leave. End of story. There were two complaints, one
>> was that I installed bars vertically and not horizontally (no room and no
>> studs behind), then the state added that I had not pulled a permit. Grab
>> bars can be installed any which way you want, verytically, horizontally,
>> angled, etc. so that went nowhere but this "no permit" thing really
>> startled me. I have NEVER pulled a permit for grab bars and don't know
>> why I would have to since I am not altering the structure in any way.
>> Anyone have any info?
>> Thanks
>> Tim

Posted by RicodJour on October 27, 2009, 5:36 pm

> Hi everyone:
> I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
> because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
> residence. There was no other work done. The only work done was to take 4-5
> grab bars out of their boxes and screw them into the wall studs, pick up
> the trash and leave. End of story. There were two complaints, one was that I
> installed bars vertically and not horizontally (no room and no studs
> behind), then the state added that I had not pulled a permit. Grab bars can
> be installed any which way you want, verytically, horizontally, angled, etc.
> so that went nowhere but this "no permit" thing really startled me. I have
> NEVER pulled a permit for grab bars and don't know why I would have to since
> I am not altering the structure in any way.
> Anyone have any info?

In my area the town has a web site that lists the common items of work
that trigger the need for pulling a permit.
http://www.northhempsteadny.gov/content/7350/7121/7237/4377/4379/default.aspx

Ask your licensing board contact to point out the written section
where grab bars trigger the requirement. You will find many items of
similarly small scope that don't, and you will most likely be able to
get them to throw the complaint out. If they do not want to throw it
out, tell them that you did not pull a permit as this requirement is
obviously so new it is not even on their own books, but as a law-
abiding contractor you would be willing to pay a fine if it does not
get entered on your record. If you have never or rarely pulled
permits that will be a tough sell.

R

Posted by Tim Conde on October 28, 2009, 2:54 am

Thanks for the reply. I am actually on a retainer deal with a lot of
insurance companies to do their workman's comp work. And when it comes to
insurance companies, believe me, I am carefully watched. I don't even do
work for homeowners anymore, only insurance companies. But you had better do
it right, or my understanding is that they have a portable gallows and they
bring it to the job site and hang your ass. This is not even doing work FOR
lawyers. One side has a team of lawyers and they want everything they can
get. The other side has a team of lawyers and they want to give the injured
worker the absolute minimum. One day, on a job, I had more lawyers
inspecting the work, than I had people doing the work. As far as permits, I
have permits when they are needed. I called and was told that, no I did not
need a permit. If I screw the bars into the wall, I do not need a permit. If
I open the wall up to install blocking, I do need a permit. In this state,
it takes no effort to convince the state that by contract, the contractor
was supposed to have a brass band playing between the hours of 10 AM and 1
PM every day. You tell the state that and the state believes you if you are
the homeowner. In this case, the homeowner told the state I needed a permit
and the state believed her. I am guiilty until proven innocent. But if you
really want a shocker, dig this: I knew that this homeowner was telling
lies. So when the state wanted my sworn statement to the facts, I was told
that my statement was under penalty of perjury, and everything I said was
under penalty of perjury. BUT not the homeowner. The homeowner can lie,
cheat, slander, and whatever else and the state won't come down on them. But
if I tell a lie, it is a crime. Great system, huh? A very close friend of
mine had a complaint on his license and it cost him nearly 25K out of his
pocket to fix it, lawyer fees, etc. plus insurance premium raises, lost
business, etc. Then he saw that the fine for being an unlicensed contractor
was $250. Nice...

>> Hi everyone:
>> I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
>> because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
>> residence. There was no other work done. The only work done was to take
>> 4-5
>> grab bars out of their boxes and screw them into the wall studs, pick up
>> the trash and leave. End of story. There were two complaints, one was
>> that I
>> installed bars vertically and not horizontally (no room and no studs
>> behind), then the state added that I had not pulled a permit. Grab bars
>> can
>> be installed any which way you want, verytically, horizontally, angled,
>> etc.
>> so that went nowhere but this "no permit" thing really startled me. I
>> have
>> NEVER pulled a permit for grab bars and don't know why I would have to
>> since
>> I am not altering the structure in any way.
>> Anyone have any info?

> In my area the town has a web site that lists the common items of work
> that trigger the need for pulling a permit.
> http://www.northhempsteadny.gov/content/7350/7121/7237/4377/4379/default.aspx
> Ask your licensing board contact to point out the written section
> where grab bars trigger the requirement. You will find many items of
> similarly small scope that don't, and you will most likely be able to
> get them to throw the complaint out. If they do not want to throw it
> out, tell them that you did not pull a permit as this requirement is
> obviously so new it is not even on their own books, but as a law-
> abiding contractor you would be willing to pay a fine if it does not
> get entered on your record. If you have never or rarely pulled
> permits that will be a tough sell.
> R

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