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Solution to Foundation Being Started Too Low on New Home

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Solution to Foundation Being Started Too Low on New Home bdinger 06-30-2006
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Posted by Bob Morrison on July 7, 2006, 10:55 am
In a previous post Tim Mulvey wrote...
> The point I've been trying to make is don't hang the guy without a fair
> trial. Everyone makes mistakes but it's how you deal with them that really
> matters. That other poster is ready to throw the builder to the wolves for
> making a mistake. They had a bad experience with a contractor, so one
> mistake and you're an asshole that's going to be a thorn in their side for
> the next thirty years. People like that need to have a wee bit more
> information than what was posted before letting the arrows fly.
>

Tim:

I agree wholeheartedly. My original response was perhaps a bit too harsh,
but I was in the middle of designing fixes for contractors' mistakes and
was not in a very forgiving mood. In both cases a simple telephone call
BEFORE the contractors went ahead with the work could have resolved the
issues quickly and at almost no cost. The fixes will be expensive and
time consuming.

The point of my original response was to get an engineer involved. This
will make the homeowner feel better and more confident about the
resolution of the problem. The cost of this service should be in the $500
range or so. It seems like a small price to pay to keep (and perhaps
enhance) one's reputation for professional conduct once an error is
discovered. Mistakes happen. The way the builder or any member of the
building team (including the engineer) responds to them is what separates
the professionals from the those who don't care.

In this particular case, the builder was proposing a solution without any
sort of engineering backup. There a many issues that can affect the
design of a basement wall. Simply adding a couple of layers of concrete
block on top without adequate instructions as to how to attach the block
to the concrete, how to reinforce the block, and how to grout it, etc. is
simply not being responsible.

In my mind, the correct thing for the builder to have done was say, "We
screwed up. The top of the foundation is too low. I will contact my
engineer and have him design a fix for the situation. His fee and my work
to correct the error will be done at no extra charge to you, Mr. Owner."

99 times out of 100 that will solve the problem. The Owner can see that
the builder is willing to admit that mistakes happen and is willing to
take responsibility to see that they are corrected in a satisfactory
manner -- not simply propose a solution in the hope that the Owner will
accept it without some sort of technical backup.

As for the builder paying the engineer -- the engineer's first
responsibility under the law is for safety of the public. Any engineer
who works on a problem like this one should immediately recognize that his
primary duty is the safety of the building's occupants regardless of who
is paying the bill. The "professional" builder will recognize this too
and will do the work accordingly. Does this mean that there can't be a
bit of "give and take" between the builder and the engineer? No, any
engineer worth his salt will always listen to alternate ideas of how a
thing can be done.

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Posted by on July 1, 2006, 11:18 am

Bob Morrison wrote:
>
> See my previous post on the subject. Hire your own engineer, but have the
> contractor pay for the engineer's services to design a fix for the problem
> the contractor created. If the contractor won't do this then fire him and
> get a new contractor.

In spirit I agree but having been thru a construction defect case there
are caveats that need to be added.

I also replied in the other thread with my personal experience with a
"foundation too low," and the response of builders to two different
foundation mistakes on two different houses. I hope the OP will go
read what I wrote there.

On Bob's comment I'd like to say that if the homeowner pays for the
engineer then the engineer works for the homeowner. Getting the
builder to hire an engineer may or may not result in an honest report
since the engineer is working for the builder. In my case both sides
hired engineers and thankfully all agreed on the builder's defects, but
that's not always how it comes out. If you mean get the builder to pay
you back for the engineer, that's different, sort of...but a person may
have to sue to get it back, unfortunately. An engineer in my area, and
in most areas from what i've learned, will cost a minimum of $300 and
up to several hundred. They should not have to do any soil testing or
core samples so it shouldn't be more than a few hundred. Do not by
pass getting a good engineer who's working on your side to save a few
hundred bucks or to try and make the builder pay for it. False
economy. The important thing is get a qualified opinion on what the
proper fix is before you go further.

Also, firing a contractor for substandard work is not as easy as it
sounds. Though that wasn't part of my own case, I networked with many
homeowners in similar situations during our case, and people were
getting sued for firing a contractor. I am not saying the contractor
is always right in this issue, but it happens. You have to have a
contract that protects you to begin with, and most builder contracts
only protect the builder. Wording about quality is usually vague or
missing, so the homeowner who fires a contractor can actually be in
breach. Then it's up to the court to decide, and the court is not
always fair. But it's always expensive.

It's not really out of line here to suggest consulting with an
attorney, either. You may not find one willing to take the case unless
you just pay them hourly, though. Hopefully you won't need a lawyer
but if you do, you don't want to go into it misinformed about your
rights/responsibilites under your state law, concerning the building
trades. Usually people find out the deck's stacked against them there,
too.


Posted by crhras on June 30, 2006, 6:16 pm

This solution is absolutely fine. There are plenty of homes with entire
foundations made of brick or block that are well over 100 years old.
They're not leaking or falling over and yours won't either. You can hire an
engineer or a nuclear physicist to figure it out if it will help you sleep
but you've got alot more work to do and your efforts are better spent
understanding what got you into this problem in the first place. Was your
foreman asleep at the wheel ? Is this an isolated incident that won't
happen again ? Is he going to sub more jobs to incompetents ? Maybe there
is something wrong with your selection process.

This really is a goof. When you back the truck up and tell the driver to
pour tons of cement over your hard work you had better get it right. At
that point it is pretty much written in stone.


>I started the other posting that dealt with the foundation on my home
> being started too low, and now the builder wants to correct it. I met
> with the foreman of the project today, and got his recommended
> solution. I would be curious to hear some opinions on this solution,
> and if there would be any concerns in doing this.
>
> The backstory: I am building a new home. At this point, the
> foundation and basement walls have been poured. The lot provides for a
> fully exposed basement in the rear of the home, with evenly sloping
> grade on either side. When starting to backfill around the walls, the
> foreman noticed that the footer was poured too low and, as a result,
> the top of the basement walls don't allow for proper slope on the
> driveway. (The driveway would end up sloping down toward the garage...
> the top of the concrete walls ended up being flush with the curb of
> the street.)
>
> The proposed solution: The foreman's recommended solution is to
> "raise" the home. They would do this by adding two layers of concrete
> block on the top of the current poured concrete walls (equating to
> "raising" the house approximately 16 inches). The basement floor would
> then be raised accordingly, so that the height of the basement ceiling
> would remain at 9 feet. (To raise the floor, they will be filling in
> the basement with more stone.) Essentially, I will end up with a
> poured concrete wall with approximately 16" of concrete block on top.
>
> Does anyone see any problems or concerns with this solution? If I do
> continue with this solution, are there any particular "problem-spots"
> that I should look out for during the construction of the home?
>
> Thanks again for any responses! Everyone's input is greatly
> appreciated!
>



Posted by mrsgator88 on July 1, 2006, 12:33 am
...
> The proposed solution: The foreman's recommended solution is to
> "raise" the home. They would do this by adding two layers of concrete
> block on the top of the current poured concrete walls (equating to
> "raising" the house approximately 16 inches). The basement floor would
> then be raised accordingly, so that the height of the basement ceiling
> would remain at 9 feet. (To raise the floor, they will be filling in
> the basement with more stone.) Essentially, I will end up with a
> poured concrete wall with approximately 16" of concrete block on top.
>
> Does anyone see any problems or concerns with this solution? If I do
> continue with this solution, are there any particular "problem-spots"
> that I should look out for during the construction of the home?
....

What is the advantage and disadvantage of concrete block?

If its OK to have concrete block below grade (even on the one wall), why
wasn't the entire foundation made of block?

What is the advantage and disadvantage of pouring another foot of concrete?

In short, you need him to tell you why the "fix" wasn't good enough for the
initial construction, and if its really so great, why wasn't it done that
way in the first place. Make him tell you all the bad things. And do your
own checking, and question him about anything he "neglected" to tell you.
After that you can make a decision.

BTW, this ALL has to go past your building inspector first.

S



Posted by crhras on July 1, 2006, 1:13 am

Yeah, that's great advice. Call the building inspector in on this one. And
while you are at it notify the police.


> ...
>> The proposed solution: The foreman's recommended solution is to
>> "raise" the home. They would do this by adding two layers of concrete
>> block on the top of the current poured concrete walls (equating to
>> "raising" the house approximately 16 inches). The basement floor would
>> then be raised accordingly, so that the height of the basement ceiling
>> would remain at 9 feet. (To raise the floor, they will be filling in
>> the basement with more stone.) Essentially, I will end up with a
>> poured concrete wall with approximately 16" of concrete block on top.
>>
>> Does anyone see any problems or concerns with this solution? If I do
>> continue with this solution, are there any particular "problem-spots"
>> that I should look out for during the construction of the home?
> ....
>
> What is the advantage and disadvantage of concrete block?
>
> If its OK to have concrete block below grade (even on the one wall), why
> wasn't the entire foundation made of block?
>
> What is the advantage and disadvantage of pouring another foot of
> concrete?
>
> In short, you need him to tell you why the "fix" wasn't good enough for
> the initial construction, and if its really so great, why wasn't it done
> that way in the first place. Make him tell you all the bad things. And
> do your own checking, and question him about anything he "neglected" to
> tell you. After that you can make a decision.
>
> BTW, this ALL has to go past your building inspector first.
>
> S
>



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