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Subject Author Date
Ungrounded Handy Box crhras 07-24-2007
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Posted by crhras on July 30, 2007, 7:41 pm
Thanks for your interest in my problem. I learned alot from this thread.
To solve my problem I grounded the box. I know that I probably didn't need
it for the GFCI to work but I wanted to err on the side of safety.

Curt




>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >So, you're saying that the GFCI is probably working just fine
>>
>> Possibly it is working 'correctly', that is as designed. There is no
>> promise it is going to provide protection
>>
>> >and I can
>> >ignore the results from the handheld tester?
>>
>> Only at your own risk.
>>
>> >If that's what you are saying
>> >then I think you are right but man, what good is this tester then ?
>>
>> See above! <g> The tester serves a useful purpose, you discovered
>> that.
>>
>> IMHO, and hell, I'm an idiot (but I do have an EE degree), one should
>> *NEVER* rely on conduit to provide ground paths. A seperate ground
>> wire must be installed. Relying on conduit to provide grounds leads to
>> floating boxes, outlets, GFI's that don't work, ARC fault interrupters
>> that don't work, and other strange and sometimes dangerous situations.
>> Pull a ground between the two boxes... But then again, I'm just a guy
>> on the Internet, so what do I know?
>
> Peter-
>
> Could you expand on your comment....
>
>
>>>>>Possibly it is working 'correctly', that is as designed. There is no
> promise it is going to provide protection <<<<<
>
> Do you mean it could be working as designed but provide no protection?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that a GFI
> (that's what they were called when first introduced & what I still
> call them) compares hot current to neutral current & trips based on
> the presence of a small (ma) current delta.
>
> Like I posted, the GFI's come with stickers that say "no equipment
> ground"
>
> Of course, a grounded box & grounded GFI are the best of all worlds
> but unless there is a reason not to.......a GFI in an ungrounded box
> is far superior a standard receptacle in an ungrounded box.
>
> In my previous posts I was trying make sense of what was happening
> (from afar)
>
> hence the comment "probably ok", I was hoping that someone would jump
> in and clarify the situation, having encountered similar.
>
> cheers
> Bob
>



Posted by PeterD on July 31, 2007, 8:15 am
wrote:

>Thanks for your interest in my problem. I learned alot from this thread.
>To solve my problem I grounded the box. I know that I probably didn't need
>it for the GFCI to work but I wanted to err on the side of safety.
>
>Curt
>
>

And that was probably a very good move. <g>

Posted by Doug Miller on July 27, 2007, 10:51 pm

>IMHO, and hell, I'm an idiot (but I do have an EE degree), one should
>*NEVER* rely on conduit to provide ground paths.

The authors of the National Electrical Code do not agree.

>A seperate ground
>wire must be installed. Relying on conduit to provide grounds leads to
>floating boxes, outlets, GFI's that don't work, ARC fault interrupters
>that don't work, and other strange and sometimes dangerous situations.

Not if the conduit is installed properly.

>Pull a ground between the two boxes... But then again, I'm just a guy
>on the Internet, so what do I know?

It certainly does no harm to pull a ground, and there's no doubt that doing
so makes a better, more reliable installation. But it isn't necessary, and
it's not enough better than properly installed conduit to warrant the extra
expense.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Posted by PeterD on July 28, 2007, 8:34 am
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:51:35 GMT, spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>
>>IMHO, and hell, I'm an idiot (but I do have an EE degree), one should
>>*NEVER* rely on conduit to provide ground paths.
>
>The authors of the National Electrical Code do not agree.
>
>>A seperate ground
>>wire must be installed. Relying on conduit to provide grounds leads to
>>floating boxes, outlets, GFI's that don't work, ARC fault interrupters
>>that don't work, and other strange and sometimes dangerous situations.
>
>Not if the conduit is installed properly.
>
>>Pull a ground between the two boxes... But then again, I'm just a guy
>>on the Internet, so what do I know?
>
>It certainly does no harm to pull a ground, and there's no doubt that doing
>so makes a better, more reliable installation. But it isn't necessary, and
>it's not enough better than properly installed conduit to warrant the extra
>expense.

<g> I know the NEC doesn't agree with me... But I've seen too many
conduits installed with shoddy workmanship, in high moisture/corrosive
environments, with gaps (!!!) in the middle, and all sorts of bad
stuff.

I'm perhaps a bit conservative, I don't use (or allow to be used on
work that I'm involved in) push on terminals either--must use the
screw terminals.

I really think the original post really reinforced my feelings: the
conduit wasn't making a good ground path between the boxes. Wire is
cheap, but one's life and the lives of others is not, so I always
insist on a pulled ground wire in these cases.

but, thanks for your comments! <g>

Posted by Doug Miller on July 28, 2007, 9:18 am

><g> I know the NEC doesn't agree with me... But I've seen too many
>conduits installed with shoddy workmanship, in high moisture/corrosive
>environments, with gaps (!!!) in the middle, and all sorts of bad
>stuff.

Unfortunately not everyone takes enough pride in his work to get the job done
right, and done right the first time.
>
>I'm perhaps a bit conservative, I don't use (or allow to be used on
>work that I'm involved in) push on terminals either--must use the
>screw terminals.

I heartily agree with that.
>
>I really think the original post really reinforced my feelings: the
>conduit wasn't making a good ground path between the boxes. Wire is
>cheap, but one's life and the lives of others is not, so I always
>insist on a pulled ground wire in these cases.

But the GFCI will operate correctly even if there is no ground at all; they
simply don't need one. They operate by sensing a difference in the currents on
the hot and neutral conductors. If the current going out is not the same as
the current returning, it must be leaking somewhere, and so the device trips.
>
>but, thanks for your comments! <g>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

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