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Why do manufacturers make ridiculous claims? RicodJour 06-18-2007
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Posted by RicodJour on June 20, 2007, 11:30 pm
> Most of the responses you are reading here appear to be from kids who are
> not associated with engineering nor with how engineered products are
> marketed (note the off-topic preoccupation with the falsely-accused Duke
> Lacrosse college kids).
>
> Some are arguing that the underlying soil is not strong enough to support a
> truck, which is of course ridiculous. The substrate conditions would be
> engineered to take the assumed reactions necessary, while the manufacturers
> product is design to provide a soil base and drainage stratum. It is assumed
> that the underlying soils would be considered in any installation, and
> improved if needed. This product's advantage is only in the addition of
> adding grass to such areas; already deemed capable of withstanding the
> loading of vehicular traffic.

A lot of words that don't say very much, and what they do say is
misleading.

Obviously the product is intended for creating a drivable green
surface. Thanks for clarifying that - the name grassy paver had
confused me.

"It is assumed that the underlying soils..." That's your idea of
engineering? ASSuming bearing capacity and soil conditions?

An 18 wheeler typically weighs in at around 80,000 pounds maximum load
(federally mandated maximum).
An average semi tire has approximately 60 square inches of contact
area - that's ~7.5 SF of tire contact area per truck, or roughly
10,000 PSF.

If that grassy paver stuff has a rating of TEN times the maximum load
allowed on federal highway - with the graded, layered and compacted
base - why the nifong do they use asphalt and concrete for roads?

Your grasp of the numbers is as faulty as the manufacturer's claims.
Move on - please. This is getting embarrassing.

R


PexSupply QuikTrak 468x60
Posted by Ken S. Tucker on June 21, 2007, 12:22 pm
>
> > Most of the responses you are reading here appear to be from kids who are
> > not associated with engineering nor with how engineered products are
> > marketed (note the off-topic preoccupation with the falsely-accused Duke
> > Lacrosse college kids).
>
> > Some are arguing that the underlying soil is not strong enough to support a
> > truck, which is of course ridiculous. The substrate conditions would be
> > engineered to take the assumed reactions necessary, while the manufacturers
> > product is design to provide a soil base and drainage stratum. It is assumed
> > that the underlying soils would be considered in any installation, and
> > improved if needed. This product's advantage is only in the addition of
> > adding grass to such areas; already deemed capable of withstanding the
> > loading of vehicular traffic.
>
> A lot of words that don't say very much, and what they do say is
> misleading.
>
> Obviously the product is intended for creating a drivable green
> surface. Thanks for clarifying that - the name grassy paver had
> confused me.
>
> "It is assumed that the underlying soils..." That's your idea of
> engineering? ASSuming bearing capacity and soil conditions?
>
> An 18 wheeler typically weighs in at around 80,000 pounds maximum load
> (federally mandated maximum).
> An average semi tire has approximately 60 square inches of contact
> area - that's ~7.5 SF of tire contact area per truck, or roughly
> 10,000 PSF.

Interesting, having drove many interstate miles
you get to notice the right hand lane has more
tire dents. I suppose the surface temp in a hot
sun could hit 120F, certainly can't walk on it in
bare feet, so maybe more. Maybe that creates
viscosity issues.

> If that grassy paver stuff has a rating of TEN times the maximum load
> allowed on federal highway - with the graded, layered and compacted
> base - why the nifong do they use asphalt and concrete for roads?

It costs to nifong much.

> Your grasp of the numbers is as faulty as the manufacturer's claims.
> Move on - please. This is getting embarrassing.
> R

Anybody gotta a nifong industrial sized press?
Ken


Posted by RicodJour on June 21, 2007, 1:31 pm
>
>
>
>
> > > Most of the responses you are reading here appear to be from kids who are
> > > not associated with engineering nor with how engineered products are
> > > marketed (note the off-topic preoccupation with the falsely-accused Duke
> > > Lacrosse college kids).
>
> > > Some are arguing that the underlying soil is not strong enough to support a
> > > truck, which is of course ridiculous. The substrate conditions would be
> > > engineered to take the assumed reactions necessary, while the manufacturers
> > > product is design to provide a soil base and drainage stratum. It is
assumed
> > > that the underlying soils would be considered in any installation, and
> > > improved if needed. This product's advantage is only in the addition of
> > > adding grass to such areas; already deemed capable of withstanding the
> > > loading of vehicular traffic.
>
> > A lot of words that don't say very much, and what they do say is
> > misleading.
>
> > Obviously the product is intended for creating a drivable green
> > surface. Thanks for clarifying that - the name grassy paver had
> > confused me.
>
> > "It is assumed that the underlying soils..." That's your idea of
> > engineering? ASSuming bearing capacity and soil conditions?
>
> > An 18 wheeler typically weighs in at around 80,000 pounds maximum load
> > (federally mandated maximum).
> > An average semi tire has approximately 60 square inches of contact
> > area - that's ~7.5 SF of tire contact area per truck, or roughly
> > 10,000 PSF.
>
> Interesting, having drove many interstate miles
> you get to notice the right hand lane has more
> tire dents. I suppose the surface temp in a hot
> sun could hit 120F, certainly can't walk on it in
> bare feet, so maybe more. Maybe that creates
> viscosity issues.

Did you notice the load claims at "high" and low temperatures? The
high temperature was 75 degrees. Where's that supposed to be and
what's it supposed to represent? HDPE softens considerably with
temperature. They don't attempt to make any disclaimers about
climate. What do you think would be a normal high temperature for a
paving product? I'd guess about 20 degrees higher than 75.

> > If that grassy paver stuff has a rating of TEN times the maximum load
> > allowed on federal highway - with the graded, layered and compacted
> > base - why the nifong do they use asphalt and concrete for roads?
>
> It costs to nifong much.

It'd cost a fraction of a real road and would shut all the greenies
up. Someone would have suggested it and there'd be test roads under
construction.

I don't doubt there are plenty of locations and applications for their
stuff. It's just the ridiculous claims that are nifonged.

R


Posted by Bobk207 on June 20, 2007, 2:09 pm
>
>
>
> > There's a new trend to develop green roofs (covered with grass). Used on
> > some commercial buildings made to be walked on by the tenets, also used to
> > make a roof greener for a penthouse. That's where I've seen these types of
> > products used, but not to any real extent.
>
> > As far as the loading goes, did you see that its designed to use a base of
> > 6-7 inches of stone aggregate, covered with a bed of gravel 2' thick, with
> > the hollows filled with pea gravel covered over with a 6" sand cover. The
> > plastic pavers are used as a stabilizer for the gravel.
>
> > There should no problem in carrying a load of 675 psi using the method
> > advertised on the website. I don't think you read through the entire
> > specifications completely.
>
> > As far as what they advertise for loading, 674 psi is high, but not unheard
> > of.
>
> Forget left field, you've jumped the fence and are hanging out in the
> bleachers. Typical undisturbed prescriptive lsoil bearing capacity
> loads, according to the IRC, are in the range of a ton or two per SF.
> In other words, their paving plastic grid, resting on gravel (assume
> five tons PSF bearing capacity for gravel to show I'm not being
> unreasonable), increases the bearing capacity by TEN times. That
> sound right to you? If so, I sure hope you don't do your own
> calculations.
>
> R

RIco-

I visited the website & emailed the guy (he posted below) about the
claims being made.

He sent me a link to some info from the mfr (he jut sells them)

looks like the mfr had some tests done on the plastic unit (filled &
un-filled) AND the mfr (or their agent) did some hand waving based on
the ASSTHO H-20 loading

And then extrapolated the results to some of insane psf number

the guy who signed the test report is some sort of clueless
Phd.......reporting numbers with 6 or 7 "significant" figures,
reporting psf's that no soil in the world could possibly support


Using the ASSTHIO loading & then extroplating to a generalized psf is
like calc'ing the stress under a woman's high heel & extrapolating to
a psf for floor loading!

Example:

120 pounds, assume .375" diameter heel tip, standing equally on both
shoes,

540 psi translatesto >>>>>> 78,200 psf

makes as much sense as their test report & product claims

What they really have is a product that can take a higher "point
load" (actually a local small patch distributed load) than normal
(unconfined / un-reinfornced) soil.

With the plastic grid & grass roots, you wind up with a reinforced
soil that (IMO) is at best is a few times stronger (locally) than
regular soil MAYBE 20 or 30 psi

but it ain't asphalt or concrete!

cheers
Bob


Posted by Michael Bulatovich on June 20, 2007, 2:25 pm

>>
>>
>>
>> > There's a new trend to develop green roofs (covered with grass). Used
>> > on
>> > some commercial buildings made to be walked on by the tenets, also used
>> > to
>> > make a roof greener for a penthouse. That's where I've seen these types
>> > of
>> > products used, but not to any real extent.
>>
>> > As far as the loading goes, did you see that its designed to use a base
>> > of
>> > 6-7 inches of stone aggregate, covered with a bed of gravel 2' thick,
>> > with
>> > the hollows filled with pea gravel covered over with a 6" sand cover.
>> > The
>> > plastic pavers are used as a stabilizer for the gravel.
>>
>> > There should no problem in carrying a load of 675 psi using the method
>> > advertised on the website. I don't think you read through the entire
>> > specifications completely.
>>
>> > As far as what they advertise for loading, 674 psi is high, but not
>> > unheard
>> > of.
>>
>> Forget left field, you've jumped the fence and are hanging out in the
>> bleachers. Typical undisturbed prescriptive lsoil bearing capacity
>> loads, according to the IRC, are in the range of a ton or two per SF.
>> In other words, their paving plastic grid, resting on gravel (assume
>> five tons PSF bearing capacity for gravel to show I'm not being
>> unreasonable), increases the bearing capacity by TEN times. That
>> sound right to you? If so, I sure hope you don't do your own
>> calculations.
>>
>> R
>
> RIco-
>
> I visited the website & emailed the guy (he posted below) about the
> claims being made.
>
> He sent me a link to some info from the mfr (he jut sells them)
>
> looks like the mfr had some tests done on the plastic unit (filled &
> un-filled) AND the mfr (or their agent) did some hand waving based on
> the ASSTHO H-20 loading
>
> And then extrapolated the results to some of insane psf number
>
> the guy who signed the test report is some sort of clueless
> Phd.......reporting numbers with 6 or 7 "significant" figures,
> reporting psf's that no soil in the world could possibly support
>
>
> Using the ASSTHIO loading & then extroplating to a generalized psf is
> like calc'ing the stress under a woman's high heel & extrapolating to
> a psf for floor loading!
>
> Example:
>
> 120 pounds, assume .375" diameter heel tip, standing equally on both
> shoes,
>
> 540 psi translatesto >>>>>> 78,200 psf

hehheh You obviously don't wear heels.
You forgot to account for the sizable percentage of weight on the balls of
the feet.
Why do I suddenly feel like Reese Witherspoon in Legally
Blonde?....................Bend....and Snap!



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