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Posted by solarsell on October 5, 2006, 8:25 pm
> How can I say this? I've made it my mission in life to ignore people
> who tell me I can't do things. Now, you may be completely right. If
> someone gives me good supporting arguments for why something can't be
> done, then I'm open to listening to their ideas. But my knee-jerk
> reaction to knee-jerk reactions is to simply ignore people. People
> think I'm nuts for making my own furniture, yet they tell me how nice
> it is and complain about the junk in the store. People think I'm nuts
> for doing my own car repairs, yet they complain to me about how much
> the repairs cost and wish they could get $50 brake jobs. People tell
> me I'm nuts for being a consultant and hopping around rather than
> getting a nice "stable" job, yet they wish they could get away from
> their dead-end job and make more money and have more freedom like I do.
> People tell me I'm nuts for having nine children, and for adopting
> five of them from three different countries, yet I have interesting
> life experiences and a big loving family. People tell me they wish
> they had more children, but never do because they decided they can't
> afford them. People think we're nuts for renting the house we're in
> now and "throwing money away" every month instead of buying, until I
> tell them how the $12,000 a year property taxes mean the house has to
> appreciate that much every year just to break even. Most people are
> confined to a prison of conformity, unwilling to try new or different
> things, limiting their options, because it's not perceived to be normal
> or proper. In short, my wife and I have built a life around walking to
> a different beat, thinking outside the box, doing things that other
> people think are nuts.
CRITICAL THINKING
Good for you! People who think for themselves are an endangered species.
Unfortunately we've become a nation of sheeple - people who let others do
the thinking for them - foaming at the mouth, right wing, extremist hate
radio propaganda has convinced millions that war mongers and corporate
whores are on the side of the people, endless commercials upon commercials
on the brainwashing machine (TV) stimulate an insatiable appetite for more &
more things, politicians who try to convince you slaughtering innocent
people & stealing their resources is "democracy", medical "experts" who try
to convince you you need their expensive, dangerous drugs to cure made up
diseases like acid reflux "disease" which is really sitting on my fat ass
eating too much of the wrong food disease. In case you're interested this is
the brain washing technology corporations & politicians use to manufacture
consent and acquiescence:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/century_of_the_self.shtml
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12642.htm
We've lost the ability to do critical thinking. We rely on "experts".
Experts are usually people with vested interests. You should do it their way
not because it's better but because there's a profit in it for them. People
always want to have their own decisions validated so they'll try to convince
you what they have is what you should have. What kind of car do you have by
the way? I'm thinking of getting an air cooled engine car because it's
easier DIY maintenance.
THIN SHELL REINFORCED CONCRETE BUILDINGS
If you're in tornado country you should definitely look at thin shell
reinforced concrete technology like AI Domes & Monolithic Domes. People who
know nothing about it and have never done it will give you all kinds of
nonsense because they can't profit from it. "It's too expensive, it's too
hot, it's too cold, doesn't do this, doesn't do that." BS. Stick frame, even
steel can't hold a candle to thin shell reinforced concrete on any objective
parameter. I encourage you to find out for yourself.
I'm building an AI Dome in Norwalk, CT. Before I decided on a building
technology I first went to the MD workshop in TX
http://www.monolithic.com/workshops/. I spent $1500.+ of my hard earned
money and a week of my time and a lot of effort because my initial
impression was favorable but I wanted to be absolutely sure before plunking
down the big bucks. I would encourage anyone thinking of an MD to take the
workshop. It's a bargain considering how much you'll learn. Nobody knows
more about concrete or polyurethane insulation. Even if you hire out the
work you'll be more aware of potential pitfalls.
Then I went to Rockledge, FL to check out AI Domes http://www.aidomes.com/.
They don't do a workshop; just a sales pitch where they explain the system
but it's pretty thorough. It made more sense to me because there's no
special equipment and complicated procedure involved unlike MD. AI is more
DIY because it's a prefab modular system and should be somewhat cheaper (90%
of the performance at 75% the price - in theory anyway). The only thing I'll
have to hire out is foundation, electrical, interior finish, plumbing & gas
like any house. All you need for the shell is a few day laborers (including
myself), a scaffold, cement for the seams and paint. No roofers, no siders.
Goes up quicker than any stick frame tho not as quick as DI fiberglass Domes
http://www.cds-us.us/.
Good luck whatever you decide.
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Posted by solarsell on October 5, 2006, 7:14 pm
Why build a tornado room when you can build a tornado proof house at about
the same cost as stickframe? What happens if a tornado comes along at night
and you're not sleeping in the basement? As long as you're thinking out of
the box look at these:
Monolithic Domes. The ultimate in strength, low maintenance, energy
efficiency.Virtually fireproof, tornado proof, hurricane proof, earthquake
proof.
http://www.monolithic.com/
AI Domes. I'm building one of these in Norwalk, CT. Most of the benefits of
Monolithic Domes at 75% the cost.
http://www.aidomes.com/default.html
Fiberglass. Cheap, no maintenance, most of the benefits of the above.
http://www.domesintl.com/
> Hi Everyone. I posted a while back about the 5000sqft basement and got
> a lot of good answers. I have a few more now But first some
> background and an update.
>
> We're sort of in a blue-sky brainstorming out-of-the-box thinking mode
> now. We have nine kids and have decided that traditional houses just
> aren't cutting it for us. The space is used inefficiently and the
> layout is totally wrong for our needs.
>
> When I say steel building, I mean a large factory made steel building
> shell with steel paneling on the outside and inside with 6" of
> insulation between them. We'll have some windows and doors to start,
> but will probably add more later.
>
> We decided against the basement (yea!). We'll probably build some sort
> of concrete tornado room or something instead. Haven't given it much
> thought yet.
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Posted by dpb on October 7, 2006, 11:29 am
brianlanning wrote:
...
> We're sort of in a blue-sky brainstorming out-of-the-box thinking mode
> now. We have nine kids and have decided that traditional houses just
> aren't cutting it for us. The space is used inefficiently and the
> layout is totally wrong for our needs.
That seems to be totally under your control--if you're custom building
you can control the layout...
>
> When I say steel building, I mean a large factory made steel building
> shell with steel paneling on the outside and inside with 6" of
> insulation between them. We'll have some windows and doors to start,
> but will probably add more later....probably 50x80.
>
> The idea is to get into the house as cheaply as possible up front, then
> have a lot of flexability and options to partition the space later. By
...
> First, instead of the basement I'm thinking we'll opt for an 18-20 foot
> eve height. The idea is that we'll have really high ceilings now, and
> add a free-standing second floor later inside the shell.
Have you considered the difficulty and cost of heating and cooling this
volume? All the warm air is going up to the ceiling 15-ft above head
level and without interior partitions to contain any of it, you either
heat the whole thing or none of it...
> we'll start with some normal 1st floor type rooms, but make the
> ceilings in these rooms out of appropriate floor joists for a second
> floor, so like 2x6s or 2x8s, at the normal 8 or 9 feet off the ground.
> Later, I would just climb up there, put in a staircase, throw down some
> plywood, flooring, and whatever else to make a second floor. I think
> I'll have to treat these like load bearing walls. I can't transfer the
> weight of the second floor to the shell. So they'll have to be
> free-standing. Would I need a footer under the slab under all these
> walls? I'd like to have the freedom to rearrange the locations of the
> new walls after we've moved in. So maybe rebar in the slab instead of
> wire mesh or a thicker slab would make the footers under the interior
> walls unnecessary?
Depends on how much load you design in--you'll need a structural
analysis to actually determine it. Only practical way I see to do
something like this and be able to actually move partiions would be to
have a fixed exterior area(s) to support the 2nd floor joists and use
essentially something like the office partition systems inside it.
And, of course, that leaves the question of how to arrange for
rearranging the utilities (HVAC, electrical, perhaps even plumbing).
Open plenum like office buildings is, of course, possible, but while
relatively inexpensive for installation, certainly not
energy-efficient.
...
> >From steelbuildings.com, I'm estimating $35,000 for the shell. So here
> are the costs so far:
>
> shell - 35,000
> footer/slab - 16,000
at least double this, probably closer to 3x by time do site prep,
forming, finishing, etc.
> building assembly, 4 guys, a crane, and a week - 15,000 (this is a
> guess)
Any of the steel building guys can tell you precisely, but I'd guess
you're low by 2x here as well.
> windows and doors - 10,000
> well/septic - 10,000 (this is a guess)
> hvac - 10,000 (this is a guess)
> plumbing - 5,000 (this is a guess)
> electrical - 5,000 (this is a guess)
> general contractor crazy enough to do this - 20,000 (another guess)
> stuff we didn't think of - 20,000
I'd say you're at least 2-3x low on most every item except (perhaps)
the well although I have no idea what you'll have to do to get a drain
field/septic system to handle the size of family you're talking about.
I think it's probably conservative to guesstimate by the time you get
something habitable you are at least 2x low overall. It depends, of
course, on just how primitive you're prepared to be and how much you
want to trade off initial cost for continuing operational cost(s).
(The operating HVAC costs of what you're proposed at least initiall,
are, imo, going to be absolute killers in a cold climate).
> or 146,000.
I'd say, at least 350k for something reasonably habitable--again, it
depends on whether you want to camp out on a concrete slab or have a
comfortable home so finishing costs can obviously vary wildly.
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Posted by brianlanning on October 8, 2006, 1:26 am
dpb wrote:
> brianlanning wrote:
> > We're sort of in a blue-sky brainstorming out-of-the-box thinking mode
> > now. We have nine kids and have decided that traditional houses just
> > aren't cutting it for us. The space is used inefficiently and the
> > layout is totally wrong for our needs.
>
> That seems to be totally under your control--if you're custom building
> you can control the layout...
Well, sort of. The problem is that as soon as you say custom builder,
the price goes through the roof. So in the past, we ended up with
semi-custom builders or whatever. The end result was that there were
always limits to what we could do. Unless you go to an architect and
design the house from scratch, you have to start with some model from a
builder and modify from there.
> > First, instead of the basement I'm thinking we'll opt for an 18-20 foot
> > eve height. The idea is that we'll have really high ceilings now, and
> > add a free-standing second floor later inside the shell.
>
> Have you considered the difficulty and cost of heating and cooling this
> volume? All the warm air is going up to the ceiling 15-ft above head
> level and without interior partitions to contain any of it, you either
> heat the whole thing or none of it...
We have thought about it. And I think we can control everything with
effective placement of rgisters/returns and with ceiling fans. In our
previous houses we have always had problems with stratification. The
upstairs is always 5-10 degrees warmer than the downstairs. To me,
this is a sign of bad hvac design. Even with the dual zone system in
our current house, it's still a problem. So the goal probably would be
to heat the entire building at once, but keep the air churning to
minimize the problems with heat rising to the ceiling. We're also
considering a radiant floor heating system which should help that
situation.
> Depends on how much load you design in--you'll need a structural
> analysis to actually determine it. Only practical way I see to do
> something like this and be able to actually move partiions would be to
> have a fixed exterior area(s) to support the 2nd floor joists and use
> essentially something like the office partition systems inside it.
> And, of course, that leaves the question of how to arrange for
> rearranging the utilities (HVAC, electrical, perhaps even plumbing).
> Open plenum like office buildings is, of course, possible, but while
> relatively inexpensive for installation, certainly not
> energy-efficient.
Probably the way to do this is to produce several (maybe up to five)
sets of plans, each with different phases of interior construction.
That way the entire picture will be clear before hand. We'll lose most
of the ability to move walls around, but we'll at least still be able
to do things in phases.
> I'd say you're at least 2-3x low on most every item except (perhaps)
> the well although I have no idea what you'll have to do to get a drain
> field/septic system to handle the size of family you're talking about.
> I think it's probably conservative to guesstimate by the time you get
> something habitable you are at least 2x low overall. It depends, of
> course, on just how primitive you're prepared to be and how much you
> want to trade off initial cost for continuing operational cost(s).
> (The operating HVAC costs of what you're proposed at least initiall,
> are, imo, going to be absolute killers in a cold climate).
I'm figuring double what we're paying now. Which isn't so bad. We're
in 3900sqft now not counting the basement. The building we're talking
about is 4000sqft, but double the airspace since it's taller. I think
it's managable assumbing we get typical residential R values in the
walls and ceiling, which we should be able to do. We may even do
better since we'll have 6" exterior walls instead of the normal 4".
We're also considering geothermal a/c and heat. That would make the
monthly operating costs really low, but has a huge up front cost. It's
something like $20k to install. From what we've read you get that back
in just a few years. In this case, it may make the difference between
being able to do it and not.
> > or 146,000.
> I'd say, at least 350k for something reasonably habitable--again, it
> depends on whether you want to camp out on a concrete slab or have a
> comfortable home so finishing costs can obviously vary wildly.
We're probably more austere than most but I wouldn't call it camping
out. I see where you're getting the 350k number from, but when you
consider that you can buy the house we're in for that including the
land and completely finished with a full basement, I still have to
think the steel building is cheaper. My inlaws built a 3000sqft house
with a 1000 sqft finished basement apartment for 300k iirc not
including the land. And they went nuts with imported tile and high
dollar door knobs.
What I'm describing to start has the amount of electrical and plumbing
work that would go into a two bedroom one bath house plus a rough-in.
There's fewer interior walls, although they're larger. Only the
interior walls would need drywall. I would probably do the floor
coverings myself and only a third of the building to start.
It's probably really somewhere between our two numbers. We need a lot
more research. It may make more sense to do a smaller building of some
kind and add on to it later.
brian
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Posted by dpb on October 8, 2006, 10:36 am
brianlanning wrote:
> dpb wrote:
> > brianlanning wrote:
> > > We're sort of in a blue-sky brainstorming out-of-the-box thinking mode
> > > now. We have nine kids and have decided that traditional houses just
> > > aren't cutting it for us. The space is used inefficiently and the
> > > layout is totally wrong for our needs.
> >
> > That seems to be totally under your control--if you're custom building
> > you can control the layout...
>
> Well, sort of. The problem is that as soon as you say custom builder,
> the price goes through the roof. So in the past, we ended up with
> semi-custom builders or whatever. The end result was that there were
> always limits to what we could do. Unless you go to an architect and
> design the house from scratch, you have to start with some model from a
> builder and modify from there.
But, otoh, you need those services from _somewhere_, and it's
unreasonable to expect to obtain them essentially for free. While true
it's possible you may be able to draw a floor plan showing room
arrangements you like, this is no little two-room cottage-type project
and there are some serious design and construction issues to be
addressed, of which only some of the really obvious ones have even been
mentioned here. It doesn't make a lot of sense to invest $200k and
several man-years of labor and end up with something that has serious
problems down the road for lack of competent engineering. This could
take the form of anything from failing structural members owing to not
getting adequate supporting foundations to inadequate HVAC or any
number of other things if simply continue to try to "wing it" and throw
ad hoc solutions onto a building shell.
...
> > Have you considered the difficulty and cost of heating and cooling this
> > volume? All the warm air is going up to the ceiling 15-ft above head
> > level and without interior partitions to contain any of it, you either
> > heat the whole thing or none of it...
>
> We have thought about it. And I think we can control everything with
> effective placement of rgisters/returns and with ceiling fans. In our
> previous houses we have always had problems with stratification. The
> upstairs is always 5-10 degrees warmer than the downstairs. To me,
> this is a sign of bad hvac design. Even with the dual zone system in
> our current house, it's still a problem. So the goal probably would be
> to heat the entire building at once, but keep the air churning to
> minimize the problems with heat rising to the ceiling. We're also
> considering a radiant floor heating system which should help that
> situation.
So, who is going to do this "adequate" design in a structure of this
size? If it's hard in a 3000 sq-ft house w/ normal 8 ft ceilings, what
is it going to be in 4000 sq-ft of 20 ft (which in the end you're
essentially trying to turn into 6-8000 sq-ft? This is a _serious_
volume to heat/cool, and a couple of residential units aren't going to
do it adequately. When you compound the size with the discussion of
open floor space and movable partitions of a significant size and the
eventual addition of a second floor, the complications are legion to
get adequate circulation and capacity.
The idea of zoned radiant floor heat is one obvious partial (at least)
solution, but there goes the floor slab installation cost from minimal
as a conflicting item demonstrating yet again there is "no free lunch".
The geothermal-sourced heat pump is a reasonable consideration as
well, particularly if your site will have adequate water to have a
water-sourced instead of ground-sourced unit. I have had one of the
ground loop variety (Water Furnace brand, I can recommend them highly,
btw) although in a more moderate climate than there and it is
definitely true they will cut the operating cost vis a vis a
conventional system. But, as you note, the installation is somewhat
more expensive owing to the requirement for the exchanger loop. This
can be ameliorated somewhat in new construction by doing all excavation
work on site at the sime time to save a little on the equipment costs,
but this would be a big system and undoubtedly would be pretty
expensive initially. OTOH, I suspect it could have a fairly short
payback in that climate but again, only a detailed analysis will really
answer the question.
...
> I'm figuring double what we're paying now. Which isn't so bad. We're
> in 3900sqft now not counting the basement. The building we're talking
> about is 4000sqft, but double the airspace since it's taller. I think
> it's managable assumbing we get typical residential R values in the
> walls and ceiling, which we should be able to do. We may even do
> better since we'll have 6" exterior walls instead of the normal 4".
> We're also considering geothermal a/c and heat. That would make the
> monthly operating costs really low, but has a huge up front cost. It's
> something like $20k to install. From what we've read you get that back
> in just a few years. In this case, it may make the difference between
> being able to do it and not.
I think the biggest problem/difference in extrapolating a conventional
home to the warehouse is simply the single large open space is going to
be far harder to control comfort levels in and when combined with the
other stated objectives going to lead to a lot of difficulty in
designing the system to be both comfortable and reasonably efficient.
Not that it can't be done, but I don't think it is going to be cheap
and both effective and comfortable at the same time. It's primarily
the point that the objective of doing this on the cheap to me negates
the likelihood of it being very satisfactory in the long run.
>
> > > or 146,000.
> > I'd say, at least 350k for something reasonably habitable--again, it
> > depends on whether you want to camp out on a concrete slab or have a
> > comfortable home so finishing costs can obviously vary wildly.
>
> We're probably more austere than most but I wouldn't call it camping
> out. I see where you're getting the 350k number from, but when you
> consider that you can buy the house we're in for that including the
> land and completely finished with a full basement, I still have to
> think the steel building is cheaper. My inlaws built a 3000sqft house
> with a 1000 sqft finished basement apartment for 300k iirc not
> including the land. And they went nuts with imported tile and high
> dollar door knobs.
But, that has fixed walls and had the advantage that a significant
amount of the engineering and architectural support services were
almost certainly amortized over a number of other houses as well as it
undoubtedly follows pretty conventional techniques and probably shares
a basic floor plan with others as you've previously mentioned. Here,
except for the shell which I'll grant will be less on a square footage
basis, you're talking of everything being almost totally unique and of
trying to "wing it" on how to solve various problems. While you can
undoubtedly build something cheaply that way, I think it's a pretty
sizable risk of not getting your money's worth in the end.
> What I'm describing to start has the amount of electrical and plumbing
> work that would go into a two bedroom one bath house plus a rough-in.
> There's fewer interior walls, although they're larger. Only the
> interior walls would need drywall. I would probably do the floor
> coverings myself and only a third of the building to start.
Don't see how that would be even barely livable given what you've said
about the size of the family. It would seem almost mandatory to have
quite a bit more than that initially to me, but then again, that's me.
We've already discussed various levels of what one considers
"convenience"... :)
I had a fellow who was one of the cofounders of a company for which I
worked the last few years before retiring who, with his wife obviously,
through a combination of adoption and foster-parenting have had at last
count I knew 35 children for whom I believe something like 25 at last
count were they either the adoptive parents of or at least full legal
guardians other than temporary. Of these something approaching half
have special needs of various sorts. While not something I could have
done (our own four were more than distracting enough), I certainly
admired them and anyone else who is able to do such for a bunch of kids
that desperately need such help and attention, so I do hope you can
succeed here.
> It's probably really somewhere between our two numbers. We need a lot
> more research. It may make more sense to do a smaller building of some
> kind and add on to it later.
That, I would agree with as the most logical thing yet... :)
BTW, another person back in TN (an ex-Marine drill sergeant and pizza
parlor proprietor) took upon himself to take in court-appointed
troubled and in trouble kids and mentor them and provide
guardian/support services. In his case all were of at least 12-13
years old, so not quite the same thing, but his housing solution was a
dormitory-style annex for sleeping quarters and study halls added onto
the residence with a large common area. The other family had simply a
large, more nearly conventional home similar to what it sounds like you
are presently in with several wings that were semi-specialized for age
ranges...
I would be surprised if there were not support groups or services for
such families in general that would be a good resource for solutions to
the various problems you're encountering although I certainly don't
know of any specifically...
Again, good luck,
--dpb
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