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Posted by Astro on December 12, 2008, 6:33 am
On Dec 9, 10:26=A0am, thelarkinn_at_yahoo_dot_...@foo.com (mlarkin)
wrote:
> We are planning on retiring to a small lake house located in the NYS
> Fingerlakes region in 2010.
> We will need to totally winterize the house for year round living
> and have no idea where to start..
> This is the current state of the house:
> -homeosote and plywood exterior (painted)
> -no insulation
> -PVC piping - not insulated
> -metal roofs
> -wood stove available but not hooked up
> -gas heat not an option (no gas lines on our road)
> -propane heat IS an option
> -no basement or crawl space
> -windows are in good shape
> -house was built in the 1950's - and is rock solid
> Our first thought was to insulate the pipes, side & insulate the house an=
d
> put in a propane tank for heat.
> Is this a logical starting point??
> Thank you
> Melissa
> -------------------------------------
Anywhere near Ithaca? If so, you've got a group of some of the most
dedicated environmental and green building people around there and can
get plenty of advice. You should be able to find competent people to
do some great work.
On the heating system, as people noted, propane is just about the
worst decision you can make from a cost perspective. Depending on your
budget, consider a ground source heat pump or a Hallowell heat pump -
either should be able to deal with your heating demands through the
winter, if sized properly.
Go all-out on insulating *right* and tight and the heating system will
be less important. But make sure you design properly. Get a local
expert to walk you through a proper whole-house design - don't
approach this piecemeal or you'll risk creating an unsafe living
environment. Having gone through piecemeal renovations myself, and
having evaluated numerous houses in my area, I'd want to rip it down
to the studs from the outside, rewire as needed, spray foam the outer
envelope - walls and ceiling, making sure that the pipes are all
protected and not left exposed to the cold. Maybe add an inches of
board foam to the outside. Sheath. Side. Then add an energy recovery
ventilator or heat recovery ventilator to provide fresh air.
But as noted, the right approach is to find someone local you can
trust to guide you through the entire process and tailor the solution
to your specific needs and home.
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Posted by jamesgangnc on December 12, 2008, 9:59 am
Don't get me wrong, ground source heat pumps are a great idea. But I do not
recomend them for most people because there is not enough volume to bring
the price down and it is difficult to find experienced technicians that will
install them correctly and keep it running properly. Presently they are
damn expensive and there are numerous horror stories about local service
guys f#*king them completely up. That's why I suggested a hybrid heat
pump/propane solution.
On Dec 9, 10:26 am, thelarkinn_at_yahoo_dot_...@foo.com (mlarkin)
wrote:
> We are planning on retiring to a small lake house located in the NYS
> Fingerlakes region in 2010.
> We will need to totally winterize the house for year round living
> and have no idea where to start..
> This is the current state of the house:
> -homeosote and plywood exterior (painted)
> -no insulation
> -PVC piping - not insulated
> -metal roofs
> -wood stove available but not hooked up
> -gas heat not an option (no gas lines on our road)
> -propane heat IS an option
> -no basement or crawl space
> -windows are in good shape
> -house was built in the 1950's - and is rock solid
> Our first thought was to insulate the pipes, side & insulate the house and
> put in a propane tank for heat.
> Is this a logical starting point??
> Thank you
> Melissa
> -------------------------------------
Anywhere near Ithaca? If so, you've got a group of some of the most
dedicated environmental and green building people around there and can
get plenty of advice. You should be able to find competent people to
do some great work.
On the heating system, as people noted, propane is just about the
worst decision you can make from a cost perspective. Depending on your
budget, consider a ground source heat pump or a Hallowell heat pump -
either should be able to deal with your heating demands through the
winter, if sized properly.
Go all-out on insulating *right* and tight and the heating system will
be less important. But make sure you design properly. Get a local
expert to walk you through a proper whole-house design - don't
approach this piecemeal or you'll risk creating an unsafe living
environment. Having gone through piecemeal renovations myself, and
having evaluated numerous houses in my area, I'd want to rip it down
to the studs from the outside, rewire as needed, spray foam the outer
envelope - walls and ceiling, making sure that the pipes are all
protected and not left exposed to the cold. Maybe add an inches of
board foam to the outside. Sheath. Side. Then add an energy recovery
ventilator or heat recovery ventilator to provide fresh air.
But as noted, the right approach is to find someone local you can
trust to guide you through the entire process and tailor the solution
to your specific needs and home.
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Posted by Paul M. Eldridge on December 13, 2008, 4:42 pm
wrote:
>Don't get me wrong, ground source heat pumps are a great idea. But I do not
>recomend them for most people because there is not enough volume to bring
>the price down and it is difficult to find experienced technicians that will
>install them correctly and keep it running properly. Presently they are
>damn expensive and there are numerous horror stories about local service
>guys f#*king them completely up. That's why I suggested a hybrid heat
>pump/propane solution.
Hi James,
Another good option for existing construction is a ductless heat pump.
I put one in my home four years ago and it has cut my heating costs by
more than half (I have an oil-fired boiler). Tomorrow morning, I'm
installing a second, high efficiency, inverter model to better serve
my lower level (a Sanyo 12KHS71).
This Sanyo works down to -20C and provides over half of its nominal
heating capacity at -18C (0F). I paid $1,350.00 CDN for this unit,
plus another $220.00 for misc. hardware; a buddy of mine and a friend
of his who is a licensed HVAC tech will be handling the install.
Altogether, my cost comes to just under $2,000.00 (US$1,600.00).
As an added bonus, I can run it in "dry" mode during the spring,
summer and fall and finally rid myself of my noisy, power guzzling,
got-to-empty-the-damn-bucket-yet-again dehumidifier.
Cheers,
Paul
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Posted by Paul M. Eldridge on December 14, 2008, 3:13 pm
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:42:54 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge
>wrote:
>>Don't get me wrong, ground source heat pumps are a great idea. But I do not
>>recomend them for most people because there is not enough volume to bring
>>the price down and it is difficult to find experienced technicians that will
>>install them correctly and keep it running properly. Presently they are
>>damn expensive and there are numerous horror stories about local service
>>guys f#*king them completely up. That's why I suggested a hybrid heat
>>pump/propane solution.
>Hi James,
>Another good option for existing construction is a ductless heat pump.
>I put one in my home four years ago and it has cut my heating costs by
>more than half (I have an oil-fired boiler). Tomorrow morning, I'm
>installing a second, high efficiency, inverter model to better serve
>my lower level (a Sanyo 12KHS71).
>This Sanyo works down to -20C and provides over half of its nominal
>heating capacity at -18C (0F). I paid $1,350.00 CDN for this unit,
>plus another $220.00 for misc. hardware; a buddy of mine and a friend
>of his who is a licensed HVAC tech will be handling the install.
>Altogether, my cost comes to just under $2,000.00 (US$1,600.00).
>As an added bonus, I can run it in "dry" mode during the spring,
>summer and fall and finally rid myself of my noisy, power guzzling,
>got-to-empty-the-damn-bucket-yet-again dehumidifier.
>Cheers,
>Paul
Well, the installation was completed this earlier morning and I have
to say I'm very pleased with the results. Right off the bat, the
first thing you notice about this model is that it's incredibly quiet,
both inside and out. Secondly, it produces a tremendous amount of heat
-- the current temperature outside is -3C and the air coming out of
the vent is reading +42.8C. Most importantly to me, with this second
heat pump now in place, I don't expect to burn another drop of oil
from this date forward.
You can view a picture of the outdoor compressor at:
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-d770b0a1.html
A picture of the indoor air handler can be found at:
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-6e8eedde.html
Cheers,
Paul
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Posted by Andy Energy on December 14, 2008, 12:33 am
On Dec 9, 7:26=A0am, thelarkinn_at_yahoo_dot_...@foo.com (mlarkin)
wrote:
> We are planning on retiring to a small lake house located in the NYS
> Fingerlakes region in 2010.
> We will need to totally winterize the house for year round living
> and have no idea where to start..
> This is the current state of the house:
> -homeosote and plywood exterior (painted)
> -no insulation
> -PVC piping - not insulated
> -metal roofs
> -wood stove available but not hooked up
> -gas heat not an option (no gas lines on our road)
> -propane heat IS an option
> -no basement or crawl space
> -windows are in good shape
> -house was built in the 1950's - and is rock solid
> Our first thought was to insulate the pipes, side & insulate the house an=
d
> put in a propane tank for heat.
> Is this a logical starting point??
> Thank you
> Melissa
> -------------------------------------
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> Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
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The first thing to do is have a professional Home Performance test
done. If I understand you=92re in NY state. I=92d recommend having a BPI
certified contractor. The state of NY has many of them.
A HPT is like having a physical. They should be looking at the air
tightness of the house and the ducts if there is a forced air system.
The pressures of rooms when the forced air is on and interior doors
are closed. The level and quality (quality can be more important than
quantity) of insulation in the attic, walls and floor.
Sounds like the floor is a slab and the advice of building up the
floor and insulating is what I=92d do if your can providing the pipes
are not in the floor. Remember that doors, counters and stairs will
not fit and may deed to be raised. Second choice although not as good
is to insulate the perimeter. This needs to go deeper than the frost
line and there are areas such as steps and cement that do not allow
for total perimeter insulation.
Insulation types have different R-values, some stop air flow some
depend on other wall materials for an air barrier. One material to
beware of is Radiant barrier. It works great in a space suit but not
in most conditions on Earth in a home. If the purchaser fully
understands it benefits and limitation and gets a great price (nearly
free) then it can keep heat out but keeping heat in it is not
effective. If you need more info on insulation types let me know.
Geothermal heat pumps. Look at the extra cost and put that money into
a better thermal envelope and in the long run your will be happier.
If you choose a geothermal heat pump it is critical that they get all
the mass flow rated correct or it will not perform and you will not be
happy. And it is difficult to get anyone that knows how to service
them. My money is on the thermal envelope, done correctly it will
perform and never in your lifetime need maintenance.
As for the cost of fuel, this can vary a lot from one region to
another. =93I know places that electricity can be the least expensive
and others that it can be the most expensive. The other issue is what
do your think the inflation is for different fuels and what is the
environmental impact. I have a spreadsheet for the cost per million
BTU=92s if you would like it. Just e-mail me andyenergy@earthlink.net
and ask for it.
To recap a great thermal envelope is the single most important thing
you can do then get the heating system sized and installed to ACCA
standards (this is critical), correct location and type of grills and
air velocity into the unoccupied space of the room. The last would be
a tricky complicated system which is not needed if the rest is
correct.
The last thing to do is have another HPT done as a test out to be sure
it all works as planned. Then check the utility bills as that is the
proof it all really works.
I hope this helps
I=92m glad to see some great advice of others on this thread=85
Andy
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> Fingerlakes region in 2010.
> We will need to totally winterize the house for year round living
> and have no idea where to start..
> This is the current state of the house:
> -homeosote and plywood exterior (painted)
> -no insulation
> -PVC piping - not insulated
> -metal roofs
> -wood stove available but not hooked up
> -gas heat not an option (no gas lines on our road)
> -propane heat IS an option
> -no basement or crawl space
> -windows are in good shape
> -house was built in the 1950's - and is rock solid
> Our first thought was to insulate the pipes, side & insulate the house an=