Alternative to freon?

Posted by danmc68 on August 17, 2009, 1:25 pm

What do the new air conditioners use in place of freon? Does it make
a difference in terms of the energy required to operate the air
conditioner?

Thanks,
Dan

Posted by Noon-Air on August 17, 2009, 4:34 pm

"FREON" is a registered trademark of Dupont, "refrigerant is the generic
term.... there are a thousand different types and kinds of refrigerants. The
old A/C and heat pump systems use R-22 refrigerant... it is being phased
out.

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

The "new" refrigerant is R410a. Its known by several different trade
names... AZ-20, Puron, Prozone, etc.
The actual differences are that R410a runs 1.6 times higher presures, uses a
different type of oil, and neither are compatable with R-22 or its oil. Much
more care must be taken when installing new systems that require R410a.
R410a is also a much more efficient refrigerant than R-22.

> What do the new air conditioners use in place of freon? Does it make
> a difference in terms of the energy required to operate the air
> conditioner?
> Thanks,
> Dan

Posted by Noon-Air on August 19, 2009, 5:28 pm

>> "FREON" is a registered trademark of Dupont, "refrigerant is the generic
>> term.... there are a thousand different types and kinds of refrigerants.
>> The old A/C and heat pump systems use R-22 refrigerant... it is being
>> phased out.
>> http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html
>> The "new" refrigerant is R410a. Its known by several different trade
>> names... AZ-20, Puron, Prozone, etc.
>> The actual differences are that R410a runs 1.6 times higher presures,
>> uses a different type of oil, and neither are compatable with R-22 or its
>> oil. Much more care must be taken when installing new systems that
>> require R410a.

> (R410a is also a much more efficient refrigerant than R-22.)
> No it is not make believe that it is But I am fred not!
> OEMs want you to believe that it is because it works
> best with scroll compressors!!!!!!
> That is my opinion.

Too bad you don't actually work with A/C and heat pumps... I can show you 2
14SEER heat pumps... one in R-22 and the other in R410a... for all practical
purposes they are identical. However... the R22 system needs 22lbs of
refrigerant, the 410a system only 11lbs, the R22 system also needs doubled
up condenser coils, and a larger compressor.... the 410a system does not.
THe R22 system has to have an ECM blower motor, the 410a system has an X13
motor.

I am not talking about what the OEM says, I am talking about actual
experience.

Posted by Steve on August 19, 2009, 10:29 pm

>>>> "FREON" is a registered trademark of Dupont, "refrigerant is the
>>>> generic term.... there are a thousand different types and kinds of
>>>> refrigerants. The old A/C and heat pump systems use R-22 refrigerant...
>>>> it is being phased out.
>>>> http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html
>>>> The "new" refrigerant is R410a. Its known by several different trade
>>>> names... AZ-20, Puron, Prozone, etc.
>>>> The actual differences are that R410a runs 1.6 times higher presures,
>>>> uses a different type of oil, and neither are compatable with R-22 or
>>>> its oil. Much more care must be taken when installing new systems that
>>>> require R410a.
>>> (R410a is also a much more efficient refrigerant than R-22.)
>>> No it is not make believe that it is But I am fred not!
>>> OEMs want you to believe that it is because it works
>>> best with scroll compressors!!!!!!
>>> That is my opinion.

>> Too bad you don't actually work with A/C and heat pumps... I can show you
>> 2 14SEER heat pumps... one in R-22 and the other in R410a... for all
>> practical purposes they are identical. However... the R22 system needs
>> 22lbs of refrigerant, the 410a system only 11lbs, the R22 system also
>> needs doubled up condenser coils, and a larger compressor.... the 410a
>> system does not. THe R22 system has to have an ECM blower motor, the 410a
>> system has an X13 motor.
>> I am not talking about what the OEM says, I am talking about actual
>> experience.

> You right I do not have AC experience, however on refrigeration side.
> Three well known manufacture are using 15 HP machines that previously
> was done with 10 HP reciprocating machines using same refrigerants.
> For some reason it seems to me that some one is getting snow jobs,
> also I have nothing but complains from users about noise that scroll
> generates forcing some companies to insulate the units using sound
> absorbing rubber foams to cut noise down.
> As far as capacity and efficiency it all depend on model and design even
> if same Manufacture.

If the scroll is sounding like a bucket of bolts, its running backwards.
Every single one of the new scrolls I have installed or run across is almost
dead quiet.... some of the older scrolls are a little noisier, but still a
fraction of the noise of a recip. I changed out a 7 1/2 ton Climatuff recip
with a scroll, and it was dead quiet.

If your having problems with noisy scrolls, make sure your super heat and
subcooling are correct and that your not slugging the compressor.

Posted by Don Ocean on August 20, 2009, 1:25 am

Noon-Air wrote:

>>> "FREON" is a registered trademark of Dupont, "refrigerant is the
>>> generic term.... there are a thousand different types and kinds of
>>> refrigerants. The old A/C and heat pump systems use R-22
>>> refrigerant... it is being phased out.
>>> http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html
>>> The "new" refrigerant is R410a. Its known by several different trade
>>> names... AZ-20, Puron, Prozone, etc.
>>> The actual differences are that R410a runs 1.6 times higher presures,
>>> uses a different type of oil, and neither are compatable with R-22 or
>>> its oil. Much more care must be taken when installing new systems
>>> that require R410a.

>> (R410a is also a much more efficient refrigerant than R-22.)
>> No it is not make believe that it is But I am fred not!
>> OEMs want you to believe that it is because it works
>> best with scroll compressors!!!!!!
>> That is my opinion.

>
> Too bad you don't actually work with A/C and heat pumps... I can show
> you 2 14SEER heat pumps... one in R-22 and the other in R410a... for all
> practical purposes they are identical. However... the R22 system needs
> 22lbs of refrigerant, the 410a system only 11lbs, the R22 system also
> needs doubled up condenser coils, and a larger compressor.... the 410a
> system does not. THe R22 system has to have an ECM blower motor, the
> 410a system has an X13 motor.
>
> I am not talking about what the OEM says, I am talking about actual
> experience.

That is only because of different expansion and condensation ratios,
nothing more. How do you compensate for the molecular leak down of
R410A? Also, I have spent a great deal of time repairing the leaks in
R410A systems installed by others. Fer Chists sake, Doesn't anyone teach
these guys how to make a Military brazed Joint? I have had a couple of
shitty Evaporators that held nitrogen charge when delivered, but leaked
when operational with R410A. We have had a cool summer after a very mild
winter. The weather is averaging about 76ºf, and I am tuning up furnaces
all ready.

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