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COP/SEER question Geoman 06-23-2007
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Posted by Geoman on June 23, 2007, 10:30 am
I know what the two are, my question however is this,

What actually effects the ratings the most?

I'm under the impression its in this order:

Condenser size
Evap efficiency
Compressor designs

I really don't think for A.C and Heat pumps that the compressors have
changed that much, have they? I'm speaking of course of r-22 units. What
has really changed from lets say 10 seer to a 12 seer? I see a larger coils
and due to that a smaller compressor, but did the compressors actually
change any?

Rich



Posted by Bob Pietrangelo on June 23, 2007, 11:14 am








>I know what the two are, my question however is this,
>
> What actually effects the ratings the most?
>
> I'm under the impression its in this order:
>
> Condenser size
> Evap efficiency
> Compressor designs
>
> I really don't think for A.C and Heat pumps that the compressors have
> changed that much, have they? I'm speaking of course of r-22 units. What
> has really changed from lets say 10 seer to a 12 seer? I see a larger
> coils and due to that a smaller compressor, but did the compressors
> actually change any?
>
> Rich
>

Rich,

Coils have grown to be enormous, compressors I don't think are changing that
much, and ID blower efficeincy (VS).

I am waiting for the new compressors they are using in the ductless, to be
used in regular split systems. Maybe the more engineering related posters
on here could input on the possibilities of that.

The same thing is happening with furnaces.

Trane is coming out with their new furnace next month, all they did was add
another heat exchanger pass. I think they are going to call it the XV95,
XV90's will be obsolete.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
bobp3@comcast.net (home)
bob@comfort-solution.biz (work)
www.comfort-solution.biz



Posted by Zephyr on June 23, 2007, 5:16 pm
Several things occurred over the years.

1. Larger condenser's resulted in lowering the head pressure and raising
the sub-cooling some. This allowed for less horsepower needed. An increase
in sub-cooling gives better performance at the evaporator because of a
better adiabatic exchange. [Less latent heat].

2. The advent of the scroll compressor has reduced the power requirements
increasing the EER. The scroll has less moving parts and a scroll design
that allowed less liquid / vapor refrigerant to flow over those parts. Less
friction.

3. The return to TXV control has given the evaporators better performance
[although many refrigeration tech's have always known that TXV's give better
load / performance resulting in better superheat control. [Better superheat
control gives the compressor less compression ratio's and less oil sludging
from higher ratio's.] Also the use of "equalized port" gives better TXV
performance, and the use of positive shut off valve [keeps the liquid in the
condenser where it belongs on shut down.]

4. The increase of use for 2-speed compressors [staging is generally
referred but not necessarily correct.] This allows for lower power draw
during those days when air conditioning demand is relatively low.

--
Zyp

> I know what the two are, my question however is this,
>
> What actually effects the ratings the most?
>
> I'm under the impression its in this order:
>
> Condenser size
> Evap efficiency
> Compressor designs
>
> I really don't think for A.C and Heat pumps that the compressors have
> changed that much, have they? I'm speaking of course of r-22 units. What
> has really changed from lets say 10 seer to a 12 seer? I see a larger
coils
> and due to that a smaller compressor, but did the compressors actually
> change any?
>
> Rich
>
>



Posted by Bob Pietrangelo on June 23, 2007, 5:56 pm
> Several things occurred over the years.
>
> 1. Larger condenser's resulted in lowering the head pressure and raising
> the sub-cooling some. This allowed for less horsepower needed. An
> increase
> in sub-cooling gives better performance at the evaporator because of a
> better adiabatic exchange. [Less latent heat].
>
> 2. The advent of the scroll compressor has reduced the power requirements
> increasing the EER. The scroll has less moving parts and a scroll design
> that allowed less liquid / vapor refrigerant to flow over those parts.
> Less
> friction.
>
> 3. The return to TXV control has given the evaporators better performance
> [although many refrigeration tech's have always known that TXV's give
> better
> load / performance resulting in better superheat control. [Better
> superheat
> control gives the compressor less compression ratio's and less oil
> sludging
> from higher ratio's.] Also the use of "equalized port" gives better TXV
> performance, and the use of positive shut off valve [keeps the liquid in
> the
> condenser where it belongs on shut down.]
>
> 4. The increase of use for 2-speed compressors [staging is generally
> referred but not necessarily correct.] This allows for lower power draw
> during those days when air conditioning demand is relatively low.
>
> --
> Zyp

Zyp,

Great post! The only thing I question is the 2 stage compressors being a
true energy saver. I think they are more geared towards comfort issues than
anything else. They're savings over a 15-16 SEER singel stage system is
nominal during a cooling season, and their HSPF usually a little lower.

Your thoughts



Posted by lp13-30 on June 24, 2007, 12:50 pm
Interesting thread as I had been thinking about this for some time, but
got beaten to the punch in asking. I know the mfgs have gotten all the
"easy gains" they're going to get. Not mentioned yet is getting optimum
air flow through the condenser coil (ok- outdoor coil in the case of HP)
with the minimum power usuage by the motor, including using ECMs
outside. I have been wondering though, how much more efficient new
recips are compared to older and even REAL old ones, as in the old slow
speed Tecumseh B and JE models among others. Of course I have a
Frankenstein project in mind-- for my own use. Thanks Larry


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