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COP/SEER question Geoman 06-23-2007
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Posted by Geoman on June 25, 2007, 10:03 pm

> You are right Bob S. The stable ground temperature is what makes the
> ground
> source heat pump work well, especially in colder climates. The COP is
> more
> consistent.
>
> I honestly think what will come as "new" and "efficient" will be the
> "electronic" heat transfer using the bubble effect of the electron. No
> refrigerant needed. Currently you can find something along these lines at
> the local auto store sold as a small ice box for your car. You just plug
> 'er in to the cigarette lighter and away she goes. If you reverse the
> plug,
> you can create heat in the little box too. Efficient though? I don't
> think
> right now. But maybe someday.
>

Very limited and very in efficient....

They use them commercially with slab chambers for coroner labs. I suppose
one reason is getting someone that would climb into one of those chambers to
weld a leak!

Seems that Borg Warner was the originator of the first ones out.

http://www.thermoelectric.com/2005/old/photo-3.htm

More about them here
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&p=thermoelectric+refrigeration+history&SpellState=n-580264438_q-dK1.mTrSX8rqKQwp%2FA3wugAAAA%40%40&fr2=sp-top



Posted by on June 25, 2007, 11:28 pm


> If memory serves, thermal efficiency has something to do with Delta-T....
> and most of the systems today spend a LOT of energy moving the working
> fluid/gas from one state to the other....and getting a high Delta-T. I
> would think that by using a different fluid that didn't need as much force
> to move from one state to the other, but using MORE of it...you could
drive
> efficiencies up more... Or not even do a state change... keep everything
in
> gas form, just hot/high pressure and cool/low pressure....

> Bob Sisson


Are you on drugs, or do you really not understand HOW a refrigeration system
works?



Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tekkie=AE?= on June 26, 2007, 8:56 pm
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
>
>> If memory serves, thermal efficiency has something to do with Delta-T....
>> and most of the systems today spend a LOT of energy moving the working
>> fluid/gas from one state to the other....and getting a high Delta-T. I
>> would think that by using a different fluid that didn't need as much force
>> to move from one state to the other, but using MORE of it...you could
> drive
>> efficiencies up more... Or not even do a state change... keep everything
> in
>> gas form, just hot/high pressure and cool/low pressure....
>
>> Bob Sisson
>
>
> Are you on drugs, or do you really not understand HOW a refrigeration system
> works?
>
>
Both, why do you ask?

Posted by Zephyr on June 26, 2007, 9:13 pm
>
>
> > If memory serves, thermal efficiency has something to do with
Delta-T....
> > and most of the systems today spend a LOT of energy moving the working
> > fluid/gas from one state to the other....and getting a high Delta-T.
I
> > would think that by using a different fluid that didn't need as much
force
> > to move from one state to the other, but using MORE of it...you could
> drive
> > efficiencies up more... Or not even do a state change... keep
everything
> in
> > gas form, just hot/high pressure and cool/low pressure....
>
> > Bob Sisson
>
>
> Are you on drugs, or do you really not understand HOW a refrigeration
system
> works?
>
>

I'm guessing Bob doesn't understand the reation that occurs during the flash
point.

For Bob: --->Adiabatic change means that there is a change of state WITHOUT
the expense [cost] of energy. No energy is lost or added, just a change of
state with a change in heat from a sensible to a latent heat. So when the
flash point occurs, and the liquid is flashed, about 25% of the liquid
changes state to cool the remaining 75%. But with a high sub-cooling
effect, then there is less change. Somewhere around 20% flashing to
vapor... instead of 25% giving better performance. The big energy cost is
the compressor pumping the heat latent refrigerant back up to condensing
pressure to bring out the superheat. Check out a Mollier [my spelling may
be off] chart on your favorite refrigerant. You'll see what I mean.

Has anyone heard about those "superchargers" that used a small amount of
liquid to "refrigerate" the liquid before entering the metering device
giving a higher sub-cooling effect? There were some out in the early 80's
but I haven't seen any on the market. The theory then was the denser liquid
would provide better performance. Anyone?

-----
Zyp



Posted by Geoman on June 27, 2007, 11:44 am

>>
>>
>> > If memory serves, thermal efficiency has something to do with
> Delta-T....
>> > and most of the systems today spend a LOT of energy moving the working
>> > fluid/gas from one state to the other....and getting a high Delta-T.
> I
>> > would think that by using a different fluid that didn't need as much
> force
>> > to move from one state to the other, but using MORE of it...you could
>> drive
>> > efficiencies up more... Or not even do a state change... keep
> everything
>> in
>> > gas form, just hot/high pressure and cool/low pressure....
>>
>> > Bob Sisson
>>
>>
>> Are you on drugs, or do you really not understand HOW a refrigeration
> system
>> works?
>>
>>
>
> I'm guessing Bob doesn't understand the reation that occurs during the
> flash
> point.
>
> For Bob: --->Adiabatic change means that there is a change of state
> WITHOUT
> the expense [cost] of energy. No energy is lost or added, just a change
> of
> state with a change in heat from a sensible to a latent heat. So when the
> flash point occurs, and the liquid is flashed, about 25% of the liquid
> changes state to cool the remaining 75%. But with a high sub-cooling
> effect, then there is less change. Somewhere around 20% flashing to
> vapor... instead of 25% giving better performance. The big energy cost is
> the compressor pumping the heat latent refrigerant back up to condensing
> pressure to bring out the superheat. Check out a Mollier [my spelling may
> be off] chart on your favorite refrigerant. You'll see what I mean.
>
> Has anyone heard about those "superchargers" that used a small amount of
> liquid to "refrigerate" the liquid before entering the metering device
> giving a higher sub-cooling effect? There were some out in the early 80's
> but I haven't seen any on the market. The theory then was the denser
> liquid
> would provide better performance. Anyone?

Are you smoking dope? JUST KIDDING!!! Seriously, I haven't heard of the
'superchargers', but the
principal I assume is the same as a heat exchanger, to elliminate flash gas
at the TXV outlet to improve capacity/efficiency.

Rich

>
> -----
> Zyp



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