Can you please help with my homework?

        Yep. Which I gratuitously assumed as 'one' above. Chairs
will probably have maybe 20 % of that, a factor I didn't account for
above. Or below. Oh well, what do you want for free ????

Concrete will also be ~ 20 %, it looks like.

        So, a 4 inch slab at 280' x 165' = 3360 * 1980 * 4 / 1728 =
15,400 cu ft of concrete * 150 lbs = 2,310,000 of mass, ~ 15 times the
weight of the chairs

        At similar SH ( .2 ), the below 62 tons turns into 62 * .2 *
15 = 186 tons for the slab :-)

        My god, I'm turning into Nick Pine :-(

> -

>> @ 5 F / lb / hour = 2 hours of 62.5 tons capacity

>> 62 tons / hour for two hours, applied exactly during your peak load

>> period, is non-trivial compared to your suggested occupancy load of

>> 125 ton.

>> And that's just the seats :-)

>Add in several tons of steel, concrete and glass!

Yep.

>actually there are only 2500 seats plus 500 standing room.

Ah - the peanut gallery :-)

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Posted by on July 23, 2007, 7:28 pm

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:11:09 -0400, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:

>wrote:

>>> Here's a pre-cooling thought

>>>

>>> 3,000 auditorium seats @ 50 lbs = 150,000 lb of internal thermal mass

>>>

>>> at 1 btu / lb / Degree F, allow ramp from 70 F -> 80 F = 125 tons

>>> total storage ( 150,000 * 10 / 12,000 )

>>x sp.ht. of chair??

> Yep. Which I gratuitously assumed as 'one' above. Chairs

>will probably have maybe 20 % of that, a factor I didn't account for

>above. Or below. Oh well, what do you want for free ????

> Concrete will also be ~ 20 %, it looks like.

> So, a 4 inch slab at 280' x 165' = 3360 * 1980 * 4 / 1728 =

>15,400 cu ft of concrete * 150 lbs = 2,310,000 of mass, ~ 15 times the

>weight of the chairs

> At similar SH ( .2 ), the below 62 tons turns into 62 * .2 *

>15 = 186 tons for the slab :-)

Which might be a nifty idea for new construction - throw in
PEX tubing in the slab, and use it for cooling ( as well as heating ),
using the concrete you're going to pour anyway as thermal mass :-)

As long as you keep it above dewpoint .....

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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
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Posted by kool on July 24, 2007, 4:10 pm

> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:11:09 -0400, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

> wrote:

>>wrote:

>>>

>>>> Here's a pre-cooling thought

>>>>

>>>> 3,000 auditorium seats @ 50 lbs = 150,000 lb of internal thermal mass

>>>>

>>>> at 1 btu / lb / Degree F, allow ramp from 70 F -> 80 F = 125 tons

>>>> total storage ( 150,000 * 10 / 12,000 )

>>>

>>>x sp.ht. of chair??

>> Yep. Which I gratuitously assumed as 'one' above. Chairs

>>will probably have maybe 20 % of that, a factor I didn't account for

>>above. Or below. Oh well, what do you want for free ????

You get what you pay for. (<; (Did you get my E-mail?)

>> Concrete will also be ~ 20 %, it looks like.

>> So, a 4 inch slab at 280' x 165' = 3360 * 1980 * 4 / 1728 =

>>15,400 cu ft of concrete * 150 lbs = 2,310,000 of mass, ~ 15 times the

>>weight of the chairs

>> At similar SH ( .2 ), the below 62 tons turns into 62 * .2 *

>>15 = 186 tons for the slab :-)

> Which might be a nifty idea for new construction - throw in

> PEX tubing in the slab, and use it for cooling ( as well as heating ),

> using the concrete you're going to pour anyway as thermal mass :-)

> As long as you keep it above dewpoint .....

That could be tricky as the dewpoint will rise quickly with 3000 asses in
the seats.
The slab already has 9.66 miles (not exaggerating) of 1" black poly pipe in
it for brine for ice making use.We could pre-chill the floor with existing
equipment.If the floor hit the dewpoint and got wet, disaster would follow.
The main cooling need is at the highest decks, of course and we need to get
the cool up there.Back to the brine to glycol heat exchanger loop and pumps
and fan-coils and air handlers at the buildings high points.If we throw a
hundred tons of cool at it from the top and chill the floor, it should make
a difference.Precooling and cooling during occupied times should be a big
improvement.

> --

> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me

> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'

> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's

> Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Posted by on July 24, 2007, 4:29 pm

wrote:

>You get what you pay for. (<; (Did you get my E-mail?)

Nope ??? Did you get mine ?

>>>

>>> Concrete will also be ~ 20 %, it looks like.

>>>

>>> So, a 4 inch slab at 280' x 165' = 3360 * 1980 * 4 / 1728 =

>>>15,400 cu ft of concrete * 150 lbs = 2,310,000 of mass, ~ 15 times the

>>>weight of the chairs

>>>

>>> At similar SH ( .2 ), the below 62 tons turns into 62 * .2 *

>>>15 = 186 tons for the slab :-)

>> Which might be a nifty idea for new construction - throw in

>> PEX tubing in the slab, and use it for cooling ( as well as heating ),

>> using the concrete you're going to pour anyway as thermal mass :-)

>> As long as you keep it above dewpoint .....

>That could be tricky as the dewpoint will rise quickly with 3000 asses in

>the seats.

Yeh, but I'm talking about bringing it down to like 65 - 70,
not coil temps like 50 or such.

>The slab already has 9.66 miles (not exaggerating) of 1" black poly pipe in

>it for brine for ice making use.We could pre-chill the floor with existing

>equipment.If the floor hit the dewpoint and got wet, disaster would follow.

Or a hockey game :-)

>The main cooling need is at the highest decks, of course and we need to get

>the cool up there.

FloorLifters( TM ) is the ticket.

>Back to the brine to glycol heat exchanger loop and pumps

>and fan-coils and air handlers at the buildings high points.If we throw a

>hundred tons of cool at it from the top and chill the floor, it should make

>a difference.Precooling and cooling during occupied times should be a big

>improvement.

Yep. It'd be interesting to see just exactly how bad it gets
in there during various conditions, to get a feel for what might be
needed to ' get it tolerable'.

I'm really thinking you don't need any more cooling, rather a
different control strategy and some adjustments to the distribution
methods ( T the brine to an AHU ).

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Posted by on July 24, 2007, 9:31 am

More pre-cooling -

with 2,217,600 cubic feet of air, at .24 Spec Heat, that's :

2,217,600 / 13.4 spec vol = 165,492 lb of air

165,492 * .24 spec heat = spec heat 40,000 aka 3.3 ton / degree

So, with pre-cooling to 70, letting the temperature rise to 80 during
the 4 hour event, that's 3.3 * 10 = 33 tons

Not taking into account your exhaust CFM, of course.

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

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