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Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski on July 14, 2007, 12:47 am
>
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:22:01 GMT, "kool"
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> I have been asked to arrange a quote to cool only an existing
> >> >>> building
> >> >>>(arena with bowl type seating) for summer use as now the conditions
> >> >>>are
> >> >>>unbearable during events.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>I am thinking that 4 BIG units might be the way to go,one in each
> > corner,
> >> >>>probably splits.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>I can't seem to find a design condition chart from ashrae or anyone
> > else
> >> >>>on
> >> >>>google. It is a fairly moderate year round climate here, from memory
I
> >> >>>think
> >> >>>we're talking around 80f summer but it hit the mid 90's two days
> > ago.Just
> >> >>>the people load would be 125 tons and 45,000 cfm o/air required..As
> > this
> >> >>>will be a major financial investment, I need to do it right the
first
> > time
> >> >>>and any input on design considerations would be appreciated. Thanks.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Victoria B.C.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Indoor Conditions;24 C/75 F @ 50% RH
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Design Conditions; ?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Occupancy load; 3000x500=1,500,000 btu
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Square footage;280'x165'= 46,200
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Cubic footage; 280'x165'= 46,200x48=2,217,600
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> Based on the information given ;
> >> >>
> >> >> You've never done this kind of job before
> >> >
> >> >right
> >> >
> >> >> You don't feel at all confident now
> >> >
> >> >wrong
> >> >
> >> >> You don't know how to provide complete information
> >> >
> >> >wrong
> >> >>
> >> >> Therefore, you don't understand what to look for in this
> >> >> specialized kind of application.
> >> >
> >> >wrong
> >> >
> >> > You haven't mentioned solar load,
> >> >
> >> >true (although most events are in the evenings)
> >>
> >> There's some of the incomplete information I mentioned. Plus
> >> building load other than occupancy gain, IOW standard load calcs.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> pre-cooling, indoor design temps ( which at not going to be
'standard
> >> >> indoor design' like for a house )
> >> >
> >> >75F @50%RH (see original post)
> >>
> >> That is a VERY aggressive ( cold ) target for public events
> >> where people are coming in from the warmer outside. IMO.
> >>
> >> Pre-cooling will be a LARGE factor in your design, if you do
> >> it right. Off the top of my head, you should be able to plan on maybe
> >> 10 degree rise during events, which means you can pre-cool to 70,
> >> expect it to rise to 80 during a 4 hour event, which means you can do
> >> the pre-cooling in 4- 8 + unoccupied hours, which means your max size
> >> is much smaller.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >other internal loads ( lights, which
> >> >> are massive, concessionary equipment ) etc, outdoor air requirement
(
> >> >> which is a MASSIVE part of your load )
> >> >
> >> >45,000cfm (see original post again)
> >>
> >> OK, you did say that.
> >>
> >> >Hell, I've only spent 15 minutes on this so far.
> >>
> >> Hell, so have I :-)
> >>
> >> >
> >> >, smoke / fire dampers and
> >> >> control, etc etc etc
> >> >
> >> >Of course, all equipment will be compliant to all codes as this is a
> > public
> >> >building
> >>
> >> My point being, smoke exhaust CFM specs will be a guiding
> >> factor in fan selection, as well as SOO.
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Which add up to :
> >> >>
> >> >> You lack the knowledge to handle this job by yourself, and you
> >> >> need to tell your boss you need more experienced help.
> >> >
> >> >Paul, I only asked if there are design condition tables available on
the
> >> >net. This is all very preliminary.I also asked for any input as I will
> >> >be
> >> >soliciting quotes but we need to tell contracters what we would like
> >> >them
> > to
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, I don't know what kind of 'design condition tables'
> >> someone in the field would need.
> >>
> >> The BIN tables for your location can be found anywhere, you
> >> indoor design target is a decision to be made, and eveything else will
> >> be specific to your structure. You're ~ 24 winter design, 75 summer
> >> design there.
> >>
> >>
> >
http://www.bcpassport.com/vancouver-vital-information/vancouver-climate-temp
> > urature.aspx
> >>
> >> Actually, it looks like you could just open a window :-)
> >>
> >> Seriously, though look intently at massive use of OA, instead
> >> of purely contained conditioned air, in that location. It looks like
> >> you could largely get by with a LOT less mechanical than you would
> >> need elsewhere if you keep your exchanges up.
> >>
> >> >quote on. As far as input from you, I have read your resume and I know
> > you
> >> >can do better than that if you want to.
> >>
> >> Yeh, and I could get paid more, too :-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> > + 85 deg evenings are actually pretty rare, evening sea air at Victoria.
> >
> > Try and keep the structure quite dry beforehand...later bring in fresh
air
> > and only in the worst case actually do refrigerate it.
> >
> > In that case mitigate with fresh or seawater exchange--Ideal bufer maybe
> > an
> > olympic sized pool.
> >
> I like the way you think, outside the box. Maybe an ammonia to brine to
> glycol heat exchange with chilled glycol loop at 42 degrees would do the
> job.We already have 3 pools but being on 108 acres, this building is a
long
> way from the pools.
>
There is the box--and pretty much the entire universe but for me happens to
be inside of it.
Seriously though...
Im fairly close to you and so at least I know the basic static environmental
factors you are up against.
--
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