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Posted by Frank G on October 20, 2006, 9:12 am
I have been researching geothermal heat pumps for a while. The general
opinion is that the installation of ground source heat pumps (without the
loop) may be slightly higher than air source heat pumps. However, when
asking about the new WaterFurnace Envision heat pump, I receive ballpark
numbers that I cannot believe. One vendor told me that a 3-ton WaterFurnace
Envision would be around $13K including installation but without the
vertical ground loop (which would be an extra $6K), while a friend of mine
installed a Trane system 7 years ago for less than $12K including the
vertical ground loop.
Are WaterFurnace GSHP really that much more expensive? Or does that guy
think these are space shuttle parts?
Thanks,
Frank
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Posted by geoman on October 20, 2006, 9:50 am
No, the difference is because of several factors.
Seven years ago the price of sheet metal was 150% cheaper than today's
prices
Seven years ago the copper used was 1200% less than today's costs
Seven years ago the loop material, including pumps were about a grand less
for a 3 ton unit.
Funny how the public never mentions how housing prices go up or groceries,
cars. Heck, seven years ago I paid LESS than $130 for a gallon of milk,
today its $3. Look at Gas prices, BTW, plastics are made of oils so all the
plastic material in the units went up.
Look at insurance, gas, cost of autos, labor rates, all went up
So, you think Geos installed today should be the same as that of seven years
ago? Equipment efficiencies have gone up.
Enough said or do you need more info? Really, where have you been the last
seven years?
Also, possibly the dealer you contacted may be a better dealer, and the job
might be better as well.
>I have been researching geothermal heat pumps for a while. The general
> opinion is that the installation of ground source heat pumps (without the
> loop) may be slightly higher than air source heat pumps. However, when
> asking about the new WaterFurnace Envision heat pump, I receive ballpark
> numbers that I cannot believe. One vendor told me that a 3-ton
> WaterFurnace
> Envision would be around $13K including installation but without the
> vertical ground loop (which would be an extra $6K), while a friend of mine
> installed a Trane system 7 years ago for less than $12K including the
> vertical ground loop.
>
> Are WaterFurnace GSHP really that much more expensive? Or does that guy
> think these are space shuttle parts?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
>
>
>
>
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Posted by Frank G on October 20, 2006, 10:37 am
> Seven years ago the price of sheet metal was 150% cheaper than today's
> prices
> Seven years ago the copper used was 1200% less than today's costs
> Seven years ago the loop material, including pumps were about a grand less
> for a 3 ton unit.
Understood. But all that is not the bulk of the cost of any pump. I am
primarily paying for the technology, R&D etc, which tends to become less and
less expensive, especially as geothermal becomes more common. Also, my
friend installed a 4-ton pump (forgot to mention that), and the cost for the
pump alone (w/o the ground loop) was less then $4K. So prices would have
tripled, which seems a lot despite the advance in efficiency.
> So, you think Geos installed today should be the same as that of seven
years
> ago? Equipment efficiencies have gone up.
Again, no question. But the speed of the CPU in my desktop has quadrupled or
more without getting more expensive. I would even accept a reasonable
increase in cost, as I know I would probably be anywhere between $6K and $8K
for an air source heat pump.
> Also, possibly the dealer you contacted may be a better dealer, and the
job
> might be better as well.
Also possible. And I would be willing to pay for that. I am just trying to
figure out whether this guy is quoting the equipment on the high side. I
have heard people say $3K/ton would be reasonable, so I am wondering if the
WaterFurnace Envision is worth paying an extra $1K/ton.
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Posted by geoman on October 20, 2006, 11:56 am
>> Seven years ago the price of sheet metal was 150% cheaper than today's
>> prices
>> Seven years ago the copper used was 1200% less than today's costs
>> Seven years ago the loop material, including pumps were about a grand
>> less
>> for a 3 ton unit.
>
> Understood. But all that is not the bulk of the cost of any pump. I am
> primarily paying for the technology, R&D etc, which tends to become less
> and
> less expensive, especially as geothermal becomes more common. Also, my
> friend installed a 4-ton pump (forgot to mention that), and the cost for
> the
> pump alone (w/o the ground loop) was less then $4K. So prices would have
> tripled, which seems a lot despite the advance in efficiency.
Wrong, your paying for R&D for the higher seers. You can not compare this to
computers!
Labor MORE, raw materials MORE (Think about it, how much material is in a
comptuer )
>> So, you think Geos installed today should be the same as that of seven
> years
>> ago? Equipment efficiencies have gone up.
>
> Again, no question. But the speed of the CPU in my desktop has quadrupled
> or
> more without getting more expensive. I would even accept a reasonable
> increase in cost, as I know I would probably be anywhere between $6K and
> $8K
> for an air source heat pump.
Once again, how many pounds of copper is in that computer, how many pounds
of 410 A which is tripple of r-22, how much steel. Lets be REAL here,
computers raw materials is what, $20 bucks tops!
>> Also, possibly the dealer you contacted may be a better dealer, and the
> job
>> might be better as well.
>
> Also possible. And I would be willing to pay for that. I am just trying to
> figure out whether this guy is quoting the equipment on the high side. I
> have heard people say $3K/ton would be reasonable, so I am wondering if
> the
> WaterFurnace Envision is worth paying an extra $1K/ton.
3 K a ton is ridiculous, you will get a pure HACK job! Heck, I quoted a
system last year that would normally be 20K and now its over $30,000 just to
make the same amount of profit. Numbers down't lie. I use to pay 98 cents
for a standard register boot, that same boot is close to $4 now. Just last
year I was able to install a 20 KW back up heater with copper wire for $142.
That SAME job when we got around to it had the copper increased in just 12
months to $789 !!! Now you don't think that there is a difference ? Just
the wiring for your unit has gone up 600%,
Lastly, compare the difference between what your buddy got 7 years ago to
what your getting and there is NO Comparison!! Man, your getting the Royals
Royce, I would have quoted it MORE!
Also, if you go by price instead of design then go for the cheap one, you
wont know the difference. But if you understand designs and material
differences you will not be concerned with price.
Example, true experiences.
Customer 1 wanted cheap, I put in the same system as my competators.
Customer 2 wanted the best and cheapest too run. I installed the best system
possible.
Customer 1
2320 sq ft on floor ranch. Wanted cheap, I put in the same loop as our
competator quoted and the same equipment. Average electric bill about $150
Customer 2, and engineer at the State Veterans Home
4875 sq ft, two story. Changed his building plans to accomodate the
Geothermal system available. EVERYONE quoted a 3 ton or less, we put in a 6
ton unit and oversized the loop. Average electric bill is about $110.
Cost difference between the two customers was $11,000. BUT, the one house
was 2 times larger, so you have to understand that the materials and labor
were just about double. But the customer two price from the other
contractors and myself was $12,400 differnce. So, for $2400 he got LOWER
electric bills, better comfort, reistant heat hardly turns on, resale value
OFF THE CHARTS!!!
This is my last reply, if you cant see the differences I give up. Your
freind probably has a 2.9 COP where the envision IF properly designed and IF
properly installed is OVER 5 !!! Amazing efficiencies.
Rich
>
>
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Posted by Vans on October 21, 2006, 4:12 pm
>Customer 2, and engineer at the State Veterans Home
>4875 sq ft, two story. Changed his building plans to accomodate the
>Geothermal system available. EVERYONE quoted a 3 ton or less, we put in a 6
>ton unit and oversized the loop. Average electric bill is about $110.
Rich -
I know you said you weren't going to reply again, but I'm curious as
to why the large discrepancy in sizing here? Poor load calcs? Trying
to cut corners? And was this in a cold or warm climate?
Thanks!
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