Electric Thermal Storage (ETS) Heat

Posted by geothermaljones on August 19, 2008, 10:10 pm

Electric Thermal Storage is very common in Northern MN.
A friend just put it in his Lake home a couple years ago, & loves it.
It's a back breaker to install as the stone is heavy & the unit is fairly
good sized.
Couple it with a decent Heat Pump system & you'll save a bunch of $$$$.
Lot's of the No. MN. local utilities offer the Off Peak rates, so it's very
cost effective.
Beware, lot's of these dual fuel & off peak rates are not guaranteed & they
are disappearing!
Locally, here in the TC metro, I know Excel Energy offers these rates for
Heat Pumps etc...
You'll need to pull a separate service & add a meter, but the rates make it
worth it.
Last I heard, it was under $.04 per Kwh from Oct-May.

Since Excel is 1/2 way through their coal to gas conversions, the rates will
go up.
The MN dept of Commerce told me to expect a 8% increase in electric with
every conversion.
The St.Paul plant just switched... (took my & a few neighborhood kids to
watch the stack implosion)
The Riverside (MPLS) plant is under way, Blackdog is next, then a 4th.
Each of those plants has a 33" high pressure gas main to spin the turbine.
@ 8% each, I'm expecting $.10-12/Kwh soon. (thank god for wind)
That said. your off peak rates will still beat the $1.35/Therm gas we've got
now, as it's on it's way up.
Make sure you use a decent Heat Pump, straight A/C & this, won't save much.

The reason most metro contractor haven't see them, is the metro utilities
haven't been promoting them.
That's all changing, as Green (Grease) is the word...

There are a few other options if you like to explore further, but all in
all, I'd say this one is a reasonable approach.

goodluck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.

> I'm replacing a 30-year old natural gas furnace and air conditioner
> this fall. Does anyone have any experience with the Steffes ETS
> product line? It looks like I can replace my current system with a
> central unit that stores heat during the night with half price
> electricity between 11:00 pm and 7:00 am. It uses my existing duct
> system to distribute the heat. Coupled with a heat pump for the warmer
> "cold" days it is supposed to be pretty effective.
> I live in the Twin Cities metro area of Minnesota so the system needs
> to work. Most of the big HVAC outfits in the metro area don't carry
> the product line so I'm left with smaller companies from the outlying
> towns. I'm thinking that may be an advantage.
> Thanks.
> dss

Posted by dss on August 20, 2008, 8:41 am

geothermaljones,

Thanks for the informative reply.

I'm not looking to save a ton of money on this deal. I'm mainly
looking for a dependable, safe, and economical source of heat. In fact
I wouldn't be surprised to see my energy costs rise as it may not pay
to set back the thermostat as much as we do now. Electricity rates
will continue to rise, but natural gas will be more volatile and will
still trend upwards. I think there will always be incentive for the
utilities to offer off-peak rates to increase the demand during the
dead of winter (at least in the upper Midwest).

I do like the idea that these units are being made in North Dakota and
they are so simple they should outlast the average gas furnace.
Installation skills should also be less critical than with a high
efficiency gas unit and maintenance is almost nothing. I really like
the idea of not having a controlled fire in my basement five months
out of the year with the attendant carbon monoxide and gas leak
concerns.

We haven't run the manual J yet, but I'm hoping to put this in with
our existing 200 amp service. It draws 65 amps when it's running and
that's a third of our total capacity. I could also add off-peak
electric hot water for another 30 amps, but will stick with gas for
now. Between the clothes dryer and hot water heater we only spend
about $25 a month for gas. Our other 240 volt user is the electric
range so we may have to wait until after 7:00 AM to put the turkey in.
Adding another 200 amps is less than $2000 so that's a reasonable
option.

The current electrical rate is 3.7 cents off-peak and 5.0 cents during
regular hours for the heat pump (vs. 7 something for everything else).
I agree that this only makes sense if you do a heat pump. My real
choice would be a geothermal heat pump, but drilling the wells on an
existing city lot is really expensive. And you don't want to skimp on
the wells in Minnesota.

dss

Posted by Petre on August 20, 2008, 4:13 am

dss wrote:

> I'm replacing a 30-year old natural gas furnace and air conditioner
> this fall. Does anyone have any experience with the Steffes ETS
> product line? It looks like I can replace my current system with a
> central unit that stores heat during the night with half price
> electricity between 11:00 pm and 7:00 am. It uses my existing duct
> system to distribute the heat. Coupled with a heat pump for the warmer
> "cold" days it is supposed to be pretty effective.
>
> I live in the Twin Cities metro area of Minnesota so the system needs
> to work. Most of the big HVAC outfits in the metro area don't carry
> the product line so I'm left with smaller companies from the outlying
> towns. I'm thinking that may be an advantage.

I am thinking your not thinking! You buy equipment that has a dealer,
repair persons and repair parts readily available in your area. That
equipment takes a dump and the repair guy from 80 miles down the road
has to plow through 50 inches of snow and its -28ºF, You just may end up
burning the furniture to keep warm. I doubt there is anything priced at
half now-a-days. Tell me your not *Norwegian and Blonde*.

>
> Thanks.
>
> dss
>

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Posted by geothermaljones on August 20, 2008, 7:27 pm

> I am thinking your not thinking! You buy equipment that has a dealer,
> repair persons and repair parts readily available in your area. That
> equipment takes a dump and the repair guy from 80 miles down the road
> has to plow through 50 inches of snow and its -28ºF, You just may end up
> burning the furniture to keep warm. I doubt there is anything priced at
> half now-a-days. Tell me your not *Norwegian and Blonde*.

> > Thanks.
> > dss

> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

No, I'm a Fat, Bald, Finnlander with a Welsh twist.

Since these things are fairly bullet proof, "Stat says-heat rocks, stop when
rocks get hot"...
Even a novice tech can replace an electric heating element, & all he needs
for diagnosis is a VOM...
Put that diagnosis up against a 3 stage 95% communicating HP/Furnace w/ all
the tools for a complete diagnosis of every part involved in every stage of
ignition, operation, shut-down, (Heaven forbid the gas pressures weren't
properly set initially.) Now add the costs of all the parts to keep it
operating...

They're as simple as falling off a rock. & hey, you could even call
sparky...

geothermaljones

p.s., at -28dF it's way too cold to snow more than a dusting... 50" would be
a stretch at even moderate 0dF temps.

Posted by Don Ocean on August 20, 2008, 11:00 pm

geothermaljones wrote:

> > I am thinking your not thinking! You buy equipment that has a dealer,
>> repair persons and repair parts readily available in your area. That
>> equipment takes a dump and the repair guy from 80 miles down the road
>> has to plow through 50 inches of snow and its -28ºF, You just may end up
>> burning the furniture to keep warm. I doubt there is anything priced at
>> half now-a-days. Tell me your not *Norwegian and Blonde*.

>>> Thanks.
>>> dss

>> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

>
>
> No, I'm a Fat, Bald, Finnlander with a Welsh twist.
>
> Since these things are fairly bullet proof, "Stat says-heat rocks, stop when
> rocks get hot"...
> Even a novice tech can replace an electric heating element, & all he needs
> for diagnosis is a VOM...
> Put that diagnosis up against a 3 stage 95% communicating HP/Furnace w/ all
> the tools for a complete diagnosis of every part involved in every stage of
> ignition, operation, shut-down, (Heaven forbid the gas pressures weren't
> properly set initially.) Now add the costs of all the parts to keep it
> operating...

So I take it that you are against Heat pumps and their exotic repair
parts? ;-?

>
> They're as simple as falling off a rock. & hey, you could even call
> sparky...

apparently you don't do as many electric furnaces and commercial ovens
as you have indicated in the past. Don"t you think the Electricians have
violated our job space enough?

>
> geothermaljones
>
> p.s., at -28dF it's way too cold to snow more than a dusting... 50" would be
> a stretch at even moderate 0dF temps.

Not so. I have seen the Siberian fronts blow snow damned near sideways
at -60ºF. I guess you weren't around in 1968-69 when we got 54" of snow
and had -18 to -22ºF here in the warmer part of the state. We had to
feed our cattle from DC3's and snowmobiles.. And we did lose a bunch of
them. My 4 wheeler never moved until the Big boy-rotaries cleaned up the
mess. Powerlines were down all over the state. Farmers in the Dairy
business didn't sleep for days and were throwing out milk as no one
could transport it and no storage. Many of us have generating equipment
for such outages, But 2 weeks and we are out of fuel.

>
>

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Electric Thermal Storage (ETS) Heat - Page 2