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Evap Coils not all sweating Ben 05-29-2007
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Posted by hvacrmedic on June 2, 2007, 1:42 am
> incorrect" just does not cut it, Pal. You will have to put your finger
> on exactly that which you believe is "incorrect advice". anything else
> is just Bluster and Bullshit, of which there is Plenty in this NG.

We'll take it line by line then.

> >> >> Your query is valid, sift through the responses if you have time to
> >> >> waste, however your best option is to do some smart investigating
> >> >> yourself. Too many of the hacks here collect a hundred bucks for
> >> >> merely trimming the hedge around your outdoor unit, for instance.
> >> >> Check:
> >> >> #Fans are all turning with correct rotation and are at speed.

How many fans (I note you said "all") do you suppose the unit has? How
do you suppose the homeowner is going to check for correct speed? How
do you suppose the speed of the fans might relate to a starved
evaporator coil?
Your statment was so immaterial to the problem that it doesn't deserve
further discussion. Unless the condenser fan motor simply wasn't
running, fan speed isn't a concern in this case.

> >> >> #Check for obstructions in ductwork adjacent registers and at the
> >> >> indoor coil/head.

Also immaterial based upon the observed symptoms. A reduction in
indoor air volume would tend to cause oversaturation of a coil that
has fixed metering, and no major change to superheat in a TXV system,
although the outlet of the coil would experience a drop in
temperature, and thus presumable a greater tendency to condense
moisture. Another strawman, but let's continue to explore your idiocy.

> >> >> Places obstructions could impact are at "filters/ "dampers"/"splitt=
er
> >> >> boxes"/access panels and drains.
> >> >> I use quotations so you can go check on the NET for what these devi=
ces
> >> >> actually look like.
> >> >> You are looking for any breakdown of the enclosed air space which
> >> >> feeds each outlet. This includes "illegal" openings and squashed or
> >> >> collapsed duct, busted drains. Look carefully, I have heard squirre=
ls
> >> >> have strange mating habits<g>
> >> >> Check _both_ systems at this level. You can then compare "apples wi=
th
> >> >> apples" relatively.

Same as above.

>
> >> >> #Next, get two $2.00 alcohol thermometer from the local Walmart.
> >> >> Prepare a glass of ice and fill it with water and stir. When the gl=
ass
> >> >> is sweating externally drop the thermometers in it and stir. Wait
> >> >> maybe 1 minute and check the reading on the thermometer. They should
> >> >> be close to 32=B0F/0=B0C. Note any difference as a factor for later
> >> >> calculation.
> >> >> Now, find two testing points either side of the indoor coil/head.
> >> >> "Air in" and "Air out", basically. Adjust the unit so that the fan
> >> >> speed is around "medium" and take the two readings.

Why change the blower speed? If it was adjusted correctly at start-up,
then changing it will adversely affect performance, and alter what
would otherwise be normal readings for the system.

> >> >> You should allow some two to three minutes for that operation.
> >> >> Compare the readings and get a figure as a differential (deltaT).
> >> >> Do the same on the other unit.

Differential readings don't require calibration of the thermometer
readings. Unneccesary corrections are a waste of the homeowners time.

> >> >> Should all be working well and the installed design be reasonable (=
in
> >> >> line with the load) both differentials should be within a degree or=
so
> >> >> of each other.

Have any citations to support that sentiment? ASHRAE, white papers,
manufacture's data, etc.?

> >> >> The actual number depends on a number of factors , typically you co=
uld
> >> >> expect maybe 18=B0deltaT using Fahrenheit scale, 10=B0deltaT using =
the
> >> >> Celsius scale. IF the numbers are well apart in likeness or _neithe=
r_
> >> >> falls within that ballpark range of deltaT, then, you do have a
> >> >> problem.

The only rule of thumb is that most people have two of them. deltaT
can vary wildly depending upon indoor and outdoor conditions, and
especially upon the design of the system itself.

>
> >> >> #Next, take a sheet (canvas preferably or cardboard) and design it =
to
> >> >> fit the inlet side of your coil/head so it covers the entire inlet
> >> >> face of the coil/head. Do I have to say the unit has to be "0ff" wh=
ile
> >> >> you set this up?
> >> >> Once you have something that works as a "block", quickly.. remove i=
t=2E
> >> >> Start the unit and allow it to run until you can see the first row =
of
> >> >> headers begin to "sweat". Apply your "block" now.
> >> >> Within maybe two minutes the whole of the coil should be saturated =
and
> >> >> all headers sweating, some may even begin to form a hard ice/frost.
> >> >> If the whole of the headers are equally covered in sweat then you c=
an
> >> >> be reasonably certain there is no refrigeration problem of any great
> >> >> magnitude.

If the system has fixed metering, and is a little low on refrigerant,
then blocking indoor air flow will serve only to reduce superheat and
saturated temp, i.e. actually cause even sweating, which is quite the
opposite of your claim. Bristol actaully recommends checking
superheat under that condition (blower motor disabled), but given the
low saturated temp that this causes, the outlet of the evap will be
below freezing, and thus presumably below dewpoint, even with 5-15 deg
superheat. I'll let you calculate how high the superheat must be under
this condition before the outlet ceases to be below dewpoint. If you
don't derive a substantial refrigeration problem, then I think enough
has been said.


> >> >> Do _NOT_ fall asleep whilst doing this..or go answer the phone.
> >> >> You _must_ be in attendance for the whole of the test.
> >> >> Once the return pipe to the outdoor unit starts to sweat vigourously
> >> >> you have to remove the block, and this is where the original design=
is
> >> >> important, do not turn the unit "0ff" to remove the block. The unit
> >> >> must be allowed to run to "clear" the coil/head.

To clear it of what? What the hell are you blocking the flow for
anyway, when you can just disable the blower motor?

>
> >> >> #When the indoor coil test has not met the conditions described you
> >> >> best get outside and do another general check around the outdoor un=
it.
> >> >> Look for any dust impregnated oil stains on pipework and make sure =
the
> >> >> fan and outdoor coil are not blocked with debris.

Always a good idea, for a tech who knows what he's doing, but the
average homeowner usually doesn't even know that a dirty condenser is
a problem.
And why should they look for oil stains, are they going to repair the
leak themselves? If it's leaking, they'll know something is wrong
soon enough. Let the tech do the leak searching.

> >> >> Nothing obvious? Call your competent HVAC&R guy and let him run.

Something obvious, same advice.


Do
> >> >> not make the mistake of saying "I checked this and looked at that".
> >> >> One, you will maybe sidetrack his process of analysis, thereby doing
> >> >> yourself a disservice in the checkbook. Two,at worst you could have
> >> >> one of the hacks from here and thus "piss him off", bigTime<weg>

The more info the better. I let the customer tell me everthing and
anything that they've noticed. Always a good practice. MD's even
insist upon it with their patients.

>
> >> >> Any information you discover could help you later so make sure you
> >> >> record readings and observations. Field guys do this all the time so
> >> >> as to build up a knowledge base. You could learn by following that
> >> >> attribute of the Trade.

The readings you suggested won't mean a thing to the homeowner, in
fact they won't mean much to even the experienced tech unless the
readings are way out of range.

>
> >> >> Whatever you find do not bother returning with a post saying "I fou=
nd
> >> >> this, what now". I have no problem helping with what you originally
> >> >> asked, however I am a Professional (ret), therefore I can respect t=
he
> >> >> need for the Industry to have its quaint ways.

I think you've proven how much of a professional you are. The question
is "professional what"?

> >> >> Besides, you have probably have had enough of the pranks these guys
> >> >> pull, on line.. if you are a genuine self helper.
> >> >> Thank you for your post. I did find it refreshing, in this place :)

I'm glad you're enjoying offering bogus advice.



Posted by ard[H20] on June 4, 2007, 10:23 pm


>>        [..]
>>Making the statement "your conclusions and methods were just plain
>>incorrect" just does not cut it, Pal. You will have to put your finger
>>on exactly that which you believe is "incorrect advice". anything else
>>is just Bluster and Bullshit, of which there is Plenty in this NG.
>
>We'll take it line by line then.
>
Sure, keep in mind my words to the OP re "freebies".

snip
>
>How many fans (I note you said "all") do you suppose the unit has?
>
All.

>How do you suppose the homeowner is going to check for correct speed?
>
NMP. The OP is a self helper, or professes to be. You would be amazed
at just what help one can generate for oneself, given the motivation
and a _little_ direction.
I say "you would be amazed" as obviously you have never had to help
yourself. When the day comes you will remember this thread... and
wish.

>How do you suppose the speed of the fans might relate to a starved
>evaporator coil?
>
to place a DD. With an amount down as Good Faith we can then continue
with lessons on a contract or piecework, your choice.
I may be retired but I will not work for free.
IF you are one of those who think the aged should willingly grant
whippersnappers the benefit of their accumulated knowledge (in detail)
then think again. You do the yards the same way I had to, Young Fella.

>Your statment was so immaterial to the problem that it doesn't deserve
>further discussion. Unless the condenser fan motor simply wasn't
>running, fan speed isn't a concern in this case.
>
What was that you were saying about "crap"? I think I jes stood in
some :-D

snip
>
>Also immaterial based upon the observed symptoms. A reduction in
>indoor air volume would tend to cause oversaturation of a coil that
>has fixed metering, and no major change to superheat in a TXV system,
>although the outlet of the coil would experience a drop in
>temperature, and thus presumable a greater tendency to condense
>moisture. Another strawman, but let's continue to explore your idiocy.
>
Save the "I yam a tech/medic so I has all this technical BS to unload"
for the apprentices. Does not wash here and impresses nobody, that
Truth is very obvious.
All of my original response was generic advice, as a process. Grant
the OP and other readers enough Brain Space to adapt what fits to
their own specific purpose.

snip
>
>Same as above.
>
You have difficulty with the word "generic" I see.
Hint. Has nothing to do with building clones of your Mom.

snip
>
>Why change the blower speed? If it was adjusted correctly at start-up,
>then changing it will adversely affect performance, and alter what
>would otherwise be normal readings for the system.
>
That lesson after you get a DD up.

snip
>
>Differential readings don't require calibration of the thermometer
>readings. Unneccesary corrections are a waste of the homeowners time.
>
Hardly. The gentleman(?) needs to know there is no great imparity
between what he feels and what he reads. DeltaT cannot be calculated
when the readings are not the readings at the point of testing. The
whole process (self help) relies on persons being astute in that which
they <see-hear-feel>. Alcohol thermometers are renown for their
inaccuracy. Calibrated Hg would not be justified as a cost, in this
case.

Again to the OP. Calibrate whatever you buy.

snip
>
>Have any citations to support that sentiment? ASHRAE, white papers,
>manufacture's data, etc.?
>
If you had them, and they were contradictory, you would have published
them. You will not get me doing your work. Least, not until you get a
DD up.

snip
>
>The only rule of thumb is that most people have two of them. deltaT
>can vary wildly depending upon indoor and outdoor conditions, and
>especially upon the design of the system itself.
>
You have a significant number of haphazard installs behind you, then.
http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m3/secondlaw.htm

snip
>If the system has fixed metering, and is a little low on refrigerant,
>then blocking indoor air flow will serve only to reduce superheat and
>saturated temp, i.e. actually cause even sweating, which is quite the
>opposite of your claim. Bristol actaully recommends checking
>superheat under that condition (blower motor disabled), but given the
>low saturated temp that this causes, the outlet of the evap will be
>below freezing, and thus presumably below dewpoint, even with 5-15 deg
>superheat. I'll let you calculate how high the superheat must be under
>this condition before the outlet ceases to be below dewpoint. If you
>don't derive a substantial refrigeration problem, then I think enough
>has been said.
>
Save the "I yam a tech/medic so I has all this technical BS to unload"
for the apprentices. Does not wash here and impresses nobody, that
Truth is very obvious.

snip
>
>To clear it of what?
>
That lesson after you get a DD up.

>What the hell are you blocking the flow for
>anyway,
That lesson after you get a DD up.

>when you can just disable the blower motor?
>
Excuse me ! What happened to your "HVAC is dangerous" argument?
You wish for the OP to now start disconnecting wiring/drives or
whatever on your say so. Have you that medic ticket/licence at the
ready?

snip
>
>Always a good idea, for a tech who knows what he's doing, but the
>average homeowner usually doesn't even know that a dirty condenser is
>a problem.
>
IF the OP had not yet worked that out you have now fixed the
grey area. See you can help, if forced :-D.

>And why should they look for oil stains, are they going to repair the
>leak themselves? If it's leaking, they'll know something is wrong
>soon enough. Let the tech do the leak searching.
>
Again, being a non-selfhelper you would not appreciate the options
someone with self-help skills has.

SH'r: "Hellooo, Acme Hacks"
AH: "Yus Sir"
SH'r: " My <insert Make/model here> has a huge oil stain on the pan
and around this pipe that has maybe 30 other small pipes coming from
it, you think gas could get out from there?"
AH: "Why certainly, Sir"
SH'r:: "How much to fix something like that?"
AH: "$1200, Sir"
SH'r:: "Thank you"
        click...brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

snip

>Something obvious, same advice.
>
Do I hear a Polly?

        /looking around for crackers

Struth, you are plain out of Luck. Starve :-p

snip
>
>The more info the better. I let the customer tell me everthing and
>anything that they've noticed. Always a good practice. MD's even
>insist upon it with their patients.
>
There you go with that MD shite again. When are you and your Hack
Buddies here going to get it through your thick skulls that split HVAC
is _not _ Rocket Science. In fact the whole of VC as a working medium
is far from overly technical in the bigger scope of technical
engineering disciplines.
Medicos are a different kettle of fish to the guy who fronts your door
waving his "gauges" at you. Just for starters it is a very sure bet
the guy has had no more diagnostic training than what he has managed
to develop himself, depending on his exposure. Reading this NG I would
offer it is a fair bet that training amounts to Zilch. Therefore I
stay with what I originally offered. The OP can decide for themselves,
if need be.. or circumstance change.

snip
>
>The readings you suggested won't mean a thing to the homeowner, in
>fact they won't mean much to even the experienced tech unless the
>readings are way out of range.
>
Somehow I wonder just what it does take to maintain a business in your
County. A high degree of self important arrogance, perhaps?

                snip the sophomoric histrionics

It is noted you are still having trouble with that POS you use.
There is a brand (as in branding steers) given to Google Gropers. Your
posting is living testament to the worthiness of such disdain. I do
put up with the garbage as I know you know no better. It is very
obvious you have even less a grip on NNTP matters than you do about
the field you wish to debate (HVAC).
Prep school is over. Graduate to something that works or take your sad
and sorry ass away from this thread. Again, I fixed your post - no
more.

        ICE

--
The Three Laws of Thermodynamics

1.You can't win.

2.You can't break even.

3.You can't quit the game.


Posted by hvacrmedic on June 5, 2007, 7:22 am
>
> >> [..]
> >>Making the statement "your conclusions and methods were just plain
> >>incorrect" just does not cut it, Pal. You will have to put your finger
> >>on exactly that which you believe is "incorrect advice". anything else
> >>is just Bluster and Bullshit, of which there is Plenty in this NG.
>
> >We'll take it line by line then.
>
> Sure, keep in mind my words to the OP re "freebies".
>
> snip
>
> >How many fans (I note you said "all") do you suppose the unit has?
>
> All.
>
> >How do you suppose the homeowner is going to check for correct speed?
>
> NMP. The OP is a self helper, or professes to be. You would be amazed
> at just what help one can generate for oneself, given the motivation
> and a _little_ direction.
> I say "you would be amazed" as obviously you have never had to help
> yourself. When the day comes you will remember this thread... and
> wish.
>
> >How do you suppose the speed of the fans might relate to a starved
> >evaporator coil?
>
> to place a DD. With an amount down as Good Faith we can then continue
> with lessons on a contract or piecework, your choice.
> I may be retired but I will not work for free.
> IF you are one of those who think the aged should willingly grant
> whippersnappers the benefit of their accumulated knowledge (in detail)
> then think again. You do the yards the same way I had to, Young Fella.
>
> >Your statment was so immaterial to the problem that it doesn't deserve
> >further discussion. Unless the condenser fan motor simply wasn't
> >running, fan speed isn't a concern in this case.
>
> What was that you were saying about "crap"? I think I jes stood in
> some :-D
>
> snip
>
> >Also immaterial based upon the observed symptoms. A reduction in
> >indoor air volume would tend to cause oversaturation of a coil that
> >has fixed metering, and no major change to superheat in a TXV system,
> >although the outlet of the coil would experience a drop in
> >temperature, and thus presumable a greater tendency to condense
> >moisture. Another strawman, but let's continue to explore your idiocy.
>
> Save the "I yam a tech/medic so I has all this technical BS to unload"
> for the apprentices. Does not wash here and impresses nobody, that
> Truth is very obvious.
> All of my original response was generic advice, as a process. Grant
> the OP and other readers enough Brain Space to adapt what fits to
> their own specific purpose.
>
> snip
>
> >Same as above.
>
> You have difficulty with the word "generic" I see.
> Hint. Has nothing to do with building clones of your Mom.
>
> snip
>
> >Why change the blower speed? If it was adjusted correctly at start-up,
> >then changing it will adversely affect performance, and alter what
> >would otherwise be normal readings for the system.
>
> That lesson after you get a DD up.
>
> snip
>
> >Differential readings don't require calibration of the thermometer
> >readings. Unneccesary corrections are a waste of the homeowners time.
>
> Hardly. The gentleman(?) needs to know there is no great imparity
> between what he feels and what he reads. DeltaT cannot be calculated
> when the readings are not the readings at the point of testing. The
> whole process (self help) relies on persons being astute in that which
> they <see-hear-feel>. Alcohol thermometers are renown for their
> inaccuracy. Calibrated Hg would not be justified as a cost, in this
> case.
>
> Again to the OP. Calibrate whatever you buy.
>
> snip
>
> >Have any citations to support that sentiment? ASHRAE, white papers,
> >manufacture's data, etc.?
>
> If you had them, and they were contradictory, you would have published
> them. You will not get me doing your work. Least, not until you get a
> DD up.
>
> snip
>
> >The only rule of thumb is that most people have two of them. deltaT
> >can vary wildly depending upon indoor and outdoor conditions, and
> >especially upon the design of the system itself.
>
> You have a significant number of haphazard installs behind you,
then.http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m3/secondlaw.htm
>
> snip>If the system has fixed metering, and is a little low on refrigerant,
> >then blocking indoor air flow will serve only to reduce superheat and
> >saturated temp, i.e. actually cause even sweating, which is quite the
> >opposite of your claim. Bristol actaully recommends checking
> >superheat under that condition (blower motor disabled), but given the
> >low saturated temp that this causes, the outlet of the evap will be
> >below freezing, and thus presumably below dewpoint, even with 5-15 deg
> >superheat. I'll let you calculate how high the superheat must be under
> >this condition before the outlet ceases to be below dewpoint. If you
> >don't derive a substantial refrigeration problem, then I think enough
> >has been said.
>
> Save the "I yam a tech/medic so I has all this technical BS to unload"
> for the apprentices. Does not wash here and impresses nobody, that
> Truth is very obvious.
>
> snip
>
> >To clear it of what?
>
> That lesson after you get a DD up.
>
> >What the hell are you blocking the flow for
> >anyway,
>
> That lesson after you get a DD up.
>
> >when you can just disable the blower motor?
>
> Excuse me ! What happened to your "HVAC is dangerous" argument?
> You wish for the OP to now start disconnecting wiring/drives or
> whatever on your say so. Have you that medic ticket/licence at the
> ready?
>
> snip
>
> >Always a good idea, for a tech who knows what he's doing, but the
> >average homeowner usually doesn't even know that a dirty condenser is
> >a problem.
>
> IF the OP had not yet worked that out you have now fixed the
> grey area. See you can help, if forced :-D.
>
> >And why should they look for oil stains, are they going to repair the
> >leak themselves? If it's leaking, they'll know something is wrong
> >soon enough. Let the tech do the leak searching.
>
> Again, being a non-selfhelper you would not appreciate the options
> someone with self-help skills has.
>
> SH'r: "Hellooo, Acme Hacks"
> AH: "Yus Sir"
> SH'r: " My <insert Make/model here> has a huge oil stain on the pan
> and around this pipe that has maybe 30 other small pipes coming from
> it, you think gas could get out from there?"
> AH: "Why certainly, Sir"
> SH'r:: "How much to fix something like that?"
> AH: "$1200, Sir"
> SH'r:: "Thank you"
> click...brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>
> snip
>
> >Something obvious, same advice.
>
> Do I hear a Polly?
>
> /looking around for crackers
>
> Struth, you are plain out of Luck. Starve :-p
>
> snip
>
> >The more info the better. I let the customer tell me everthing and
> >anything that they've noticed. Always a good practice. MD's even
> >insist upon it with their patients.
>
> There you go with that MD shite again. When are you and your Hack
> Buddies here going to get it through your thick skulls that split HVAC
> is _not _ Rocket Science. In fact the whole of VC as a working medium
> is far from overly technical in the bigger scope of technical
> engineering disciplines.
> Medicos are a different kettle of fish to the guy who fronts your door
> waving his "gauges" at you. Just for starters it is a very sure bet
> the guy has had no more diagnostic training than what he has managed
> to develop himself, depending on his exposure. Reading this NG I would
> offer it is a fair bet that training amounts to Zilch. Therefore I
> stay with what I originally offered. The OP can decide for themselves,
> if need be.. or circumstance change.
>
> snip
>
> >The readings you suggested won't mean a thing to the homeowner, in
> >fact they won't mean much to even the experienced tech unless the
> >readings are way out of range.
>
> Somehow I wonder just what it does take to maintain a business in your
> County. A high degree of self important arrogance, perhaps?
>
> snip the sophomoric histrionics
>
> It is noted you are still having trouble with that POS you use.
> There is a brand (as in branding steers) given to Google Gropers. Your
> posting is living testament to the worthiness of such disdain. I do
> put up with the garbage as I know you know no better. It is very
> obvious you have even less a grip on NNTP matters than you do about
> the field you wish to debate (HVAC).
> Prep school is over. Graduate to something that works or take your sad
> and sorry ass away from this thread. Again, I fixed your post - no
> more.
>
> ICE
>
> --
> The Three Laws of Thermodynamics
>
> 1.You can't win.
>
> 2.You can't break even.
>
> 3.You can't quit the game.

So you want to discuss physics now. Let's have a go at it.
Explain the significance of Noether's Theorem, and how it applies to
the above three laws. No copying and pasting please.








Posted by ard[H20] on June 5, 2007, 2:53 pm

        [..]

>So you want to discuss physics now. Let's have a go at it.
>Explain the significance of Noether's Theorem, and how it applies to
>the above three laws. No copying and pasting please.
>
Best you sit under those skirts sucking your thumb, until a medic
arrives. You might just risk having yet another ring reamed out,
theoretically.

        ICE

--
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I
approved of it." -- Mark Twain

Posted by ard[H20] on June 6, 2007, 4:26 pm

        [edit -

        h'medic medivac'd from Idotsville -]
>
> [..]
>
> >So you want to discuss physics now. Let's have a go at it.
> >Explain the significance of Noether's Theorem, and how it applies to
> >the above three laws. No copying and pasting please.
>
> Best you sit under those skirts sucking your thumb, until a medic
> arrives. You might just risk having yet another ring reamed out,
> theoretically.

        ^^_Another? When was the first time? I didn't address the
        ^^_points in your previous reply simply because my first
        ^^_reply to it still stands. Your advice was totally
^^_meaningless to homeowners, and most of it was
^^_just plain wrong.

Idiot Alert.

                /0ff

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Silver Turns Black / A/C Coils Turn Black September 19, 2006, 5:11 pm

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