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Goodman/Bryant/Trane/Lennox? Travis Bickle 07-17-2007
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Posted by Travis Bickle on July 17, 2007, 2:52 pm
My 5 ton split system heat pump is in need of another $350 repair this
summer to replace the defrost board on the condenser. I'm willing to
spend the money, but the system is twenty years old, and the evaporator
coils on the air handler are rusty and may not last another year. On top
of that, the current system is a 10 SEER and was installed in a way that
virtually everybody thinks is stupid because the condenser is a good 50
feet from the air handler, and there's probably 75 feet of run line
between them.

So I'm thinking about replacing it with something all new that's more
efficient. I know that the skill and intelligence of the installer are
the most important qualities in determining how well an HVAC system will
work, and how reliable it'll be. I'd like some advice in choosing a
contractor that will do a good job.

That said, when my compressor blew out last summer, I stupidly paid $2500
to replace just the compressor, instead of biting the bullet then and
replacing the whole system. The contractor who did the work offered a 10%
discount on that work if I signed up for a $130 annual maintenance
agreement (including two checkups), so I signed up and saved more than the
cost of the agreement on that repair. The contractor seems okay, but I
have to confess, I don't know how to tell. It took them four trips to
finally figure out the reason my AC didn't run at night was because the
defrost board was bad.

At any rate, my contract gives me a 10% discount off new purchases, too,
so I'm thinking about using them for the new system if I can figure out if
they're any good. Yesterday, a sales guy came out to our house and ran
the numbers for some estimates. I got the fax this morning, and he's
proposing Lennox, Bryant, Goodman and Trane systems, with prices ranging
from just over $5k for a 13 SEER Bryant to just over $12k for a 15.9 SEER
Trane. I'm getting estimates from other contractors, too, but I don't
know if they're any good, either.

The guy who came out yesterday said that our current run line is too small
in diameter and needs to be replaced if we want anything more efficient
than 13 SEER. In addition, because the condenser is so far from the air
handler, he's recommending moving the condenser closer to the air handler.

So, I know I'm coming here late, given that I've already got one set of
estimates, but I have two questions:

First, how do I tell a good contractor from a yahoo? Is it possible to
get a bad installer from an otherwise good contractor? Are there any
contractors I should consider or avoid in Mesa, AZ? My wife is the one
who's meeting the estimators at our house, and I don't know if she can
tell how they're arriving at their numbers.

Second, assuming I found a good contractor and the quality of the
installation wasn't an issue, how does a Bryant 16 SEER at just under $7k
compare to the much more expensive Trane and Lennox models? Are Trane and
Lennox worth that much more? I've gotten the distinct impression from
stuff I've read here that many people here consider Goodman to be junk,
but that they'd take a well-installed Goodman over a poorly-installed
[insert name of favorite brand here] any day.

BTW: I believe the Lennox and Trane estimates involve new run line, but
I'm not sure the Bryant or Goodman quotes do.

--
You lookin at me?

Posted by The Freon Cowboy on July 17, 2007, 5:09 pm
first of all , call your local wholesalers and ask who they would recommend
secondly a quick check of your local bbb might be in order also .

look for the guys who take the time to do heat load and cooling analysis
and then inspect the entire system , including ductwork , to make certain
all is adequate for the new equipment

higher seers are often money well spent , including the fact that you can now
claim a tax credit on the higher efficiency stuff ,
you need to carefully compare energy costs versus equipment cost and try to
amortize the money spent over the lifespan of the equipment .
will you see enough energy savings to justify the extra cost ,
you are the one who will have to do the math .

finally , on the Goodman , Trane Lennox debate ,
ill probably get flamed , but i see nothing wrong with the newer goodman stuff

their first and second generation 80% furnaces were in a word , junk,
but imho, they have tightened up their act , and seem to be turning out better
stuff now , ive installed over a hundred in the last four years
and have but a handful of warranty failures .
the other thing i like about goodman is that they use standard ,readily a
vailable honeywell and white rogers controls ,
lennox and trane do not,
what this means to you is that down the road , when you need parts
the likelyhood is good that parts for the goodman will be available
and generally less expensive ,
its very hard to get parts for lennox's and trane's as they tend to be very
proprietary,
for example if your lennox dealer chooses not to keep the four hundred dollar
fan control board you need in the middle of july , cuz he doesnt want to keep
it in his inventory , then you will be stuck , while it gets ordered and
shipped
and furthermore , imho, lennox is overengineered overpriced stuff
i call them lummox's , atta boy dave !!!!

flame me all you want fellas , but i have never had to go buy a special wrench
to change an ignitor on anyhting other than a lennox,
ever try to change the spark plugs on a pulse ????????
they seem to try to make it difficult and expensive to repair their stuff

im sure you will get plenty of opinions and sarcasm,
but as you already stated, the best value you will get is anyhting thats
properly installed ,

good luck





>My 5 ton split system heat pump is in need of another $350 repair this


Posted by on July 17, 2007, 6:15 pm



> finally , on the Goodman , Trane Lennox debate ,
> ill probably get flamed , but i see nothing wrong with the newer goodman
stuff


No flaming from me... :-)


> flame me all you want fellas , but i have never had to go buy a special
wrench
> to change an ignitor on anyhting other than a lennox,
> ever try to change the spark plugs on a pulse ????????
> they seem to try to make it difficult and expensive to repair their stuff


Hehe... like that $2000(?) condenser coil? LOL



Posted by Joseph on July 17, 2007, 9:01 pm
-- good post --

> and furthermore , imho, lennox is overengineered overpriced stuff
> i call them lummox's , atta boy dave !!!!

That's why you make "the 'O' face" when you get the bill...
(Office Space, a damn funny movie)

>
> flame me all you want fellas , but i have never had to go buy a special wrench
> to change an ignitor on anyhting other than a lennox,
> ever try to change the spark plugs on a pulse ????????

Have you done the pressure testing on those beauties. Need to check the
Diploma for the engineer that did that
one...

It's Flapper time this fall for me (30 units)... LOL

> they seem to try to make it difficult and expensive to repair their stuff
>
> im sure you will get plenty of opinions and sarcasm,
> but as you already stated, the best value you will get is anyhting thats
> properly installed ,
>
> good luck

Goodman will have to fight its way out of the cellar... IMHO

Joseph

>
> >My 5 ton split system heat pump is in need of another $350 repair this
>


Posted by on July 17, 2007, 6:11 pm

> My 5 ton split system heat pump is in need of another $350 repair this
> summer to replace the defrost board on the condenser. I'm willing to
> spend the money, but the system is twenty years old, and the evaporator
> coils on the air handler are rusty and may not last another year. On top
> of that, the current system is a 10 SEER and was installed in a way that
> virtually everybody thinks is stupid because the condenser is a good 50
> feet from the air handler, and there's probably 75 feet of run line
> between them.


$350 for a defrost board? Must be a Lennox.
Evaporator coils are rusty? Aluminum doesn't rust.
75 feet is stupid? Not if properly sized.


> So I'm thinking about replacing it with something all new that's more
> efficient. I know that the skill and intelligence of the installer are
> the most important qualities in determining how well an HVAC system will
> work, and how reliable it'll be. I'd like some advice in choosing a
> contractor that will do a good job.


Get one that will do a manual J to size the system and a manual D to make
sure ducting is adequite.


> That said, when my compressor blew out last summer, I stupidly paid $2500
> to replace just the compressor, instead of biting the bullet then and
> replacing the whole system. The contractor who did the work offered a 10%
> discount on that work if I signed up for a $130 annual maintenance
> agreement (including two checkups), so I signed up and saved more than the
> cost of the agreement on that repair. The contractor seems okay, but I
> have to confess, I don't know how to tell. It took them four trips to
> finally figure out the reason my AC didn't run at night was because the
> defrost board was bad.


Intermittant problems *can* be a bitch...


> At any rate, my contract gives me a 10% discount off new purchases, too,
> so I'm thinking about using them for the new system if I can figure out if
> they're any good. Yesterday, a sales guy came out to our house and ran
> the numbers for some estimates. I got the fax this morning, and he's
> proposing Lennox, Bryant, Goodman and Trane systems, with prices ranging
> from just over $5k for a 13 SEER Bryant to just over $12k for a 15.9 SEER
> Trane. I'm getting estimates from other contractors, too, but I don't
> know if they're any good, either.


$5 - 12 k??? Is the only difference (besides SEER) the brand of equipment?


> The guy who came out yesterday said that our current run line is too small
> in diameter and needs to be replaced if we want anything more efficient
> than 13 SEER. In addition, because the condenser is so far from the air
> handler, he's recommending moving the condenser closer to the air handler.


Most likely true and *if* the new system is designed right, your lineset
length will be ok.


> So, I know I'm coming here late, given that I've already got one set of
> estimates, but I have two questions:
>
> First, how do I tell a good contractor from a yahoo? Is it possible to
> get a bad installer from an otherwise good contractor? Are there any
> contractors I should consider or avoid in Mesa, AZ? My wife is the one
> who's meeting the estimators at our house, and I don't know if she can
> tell how they're arriving at their numbers.


Yahoo is on the internet and normally doesn't show up at your home. <g>
Ask for references.
AZ, I'd be careful if I was you...


> Second, assuming I found a good contractor and the quality of the
> installation wasn't an issue, how does a Bryant 16 SEER at just under $7k
> compare to the much more expensive Trane and Lennox models? Are Trane and
> Lennox worth that much more? I've gotten the distinct impression from
> stuff I've read here that many people here consider Goodman to be junk,
> but that they'd take a well-installed Goodman over a poorly-installed
> [insert name of favorite brand here] any day.


They shouldn't be thousands more... and yes the installation is far more
important!


> BTW: I believe the Lennox and Trane estimates involve new run line, but
> I'm not sure the Bryant or Goodman quotes do.
>
> --
> You lookin at me?


No, but I am looking at your wife. And she's HOT!!!!!!!




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