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Hydronic system as base load, forced air as peak load... UtahBill 01-23-2007
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Posted by UtahBill on January 23, 2007, 2:45 pm
I have a new house being built, and of course am running into brick
walls with the HVAC contractor. He is more accustomed to commercial
and industrial buildings where all the thinking and engineering has
been done for him, so all he has to do is install.
What I want is hydronic heat, under the floor, stapled up between floor
joists (over an unfinished basement that also has foam insulation on
the outside of the exterior walls). I plan on using foam board with
foil on one side, cut to fit loosely enough to be easily installed
and/or removed from the engineered joists.
That will be the base load, but as we all know, changing the
temperature of a hydronic system takes hours. So, since we have to
pre-wire, pre-plumb, etc. for a forced air system anyway for air
conditioning (not my idea, but making sure that the house can be sold
someday without major mods), I want a hot water coil in the air handler
to boost the air temperature in those occasional events when the
domestic supervisor is cold and wants heat right NOW. She tends to run
thermostats either all the way up or down, thinking she will reach her
comfort zone faster that way. Really irritating in the car, I can tell
you!
That is the heating side of it, from my viewpoint. He says a simple
gas furnace is the way to go, because that is pretty much what he does
in houses. A compromise would be a modern gas furnace with 2 levels
of heating, and 2 fan speeds that won't have to run very often based on
the hydronic doing most of the work.
HVAC guy also wants me to put in 4 to 5 tons of AC for a house in
Logan, Utah. I only have 4 tons for our house in Phoenix, Arizona, and
it gets a bit hot there. The Utah house is smaller by 150 sq. ft. but
also has a 900 sq. ft. loft and bonus room area upstairs that is pretty
much open to the main floor. We won't be going up there much, though.
I warned him about oversizing, letting him know that I could live with
a system that runs too often or too long than one that short cycles. I
can always add to the hydronic if I have to.
I won't put in the outside portion of the AC for at least the first
year, thinking that I have designed the house well enough to need very
little cooling assistance, and if it does, I prefer either a whole
house fan, or evaporative cooling.
Does this sound like sound, and sane, thinking on my part?


Posted by Steve Scott on January 23, 2007, 6:19 pm
If you're going with a low mass radiant system, it's a whole different
critter from what you or your significant other are accustomed to.
Use transfer plates under the sub floor. Limit the carpeting to throw
rugs or small area rugs. It will be very comfortable as is assuming
the design and installation are correct.

Don't use a setback with the radiant system.

Make sure you go with a modulating condensing boiler.


> I have a new house being built, and of course am running into brick
>walls with the HVAC contractor. He is more accustomed to commercial
>and industrial buildings where all the thinking and engineering has
>been done for him, so all he has to do is install.
>What I want is hydronic heat, under the floor, stapled up between floor
>joists (over an unfinished basement that also has foam insulation on
>the outside of the exterior walls). I plan on using foam board with
>foil on one side, cut to fit loosely enough to be easily installed
>and/or removed from the engineered joists.
>That will be the base load, but as we all know, changing the
>temperature of a hydronic system takes hours. So, since we have to
>pre-wire, pre-plumb, etc. for a forced air system anyway for air
>conditioning (not my idea, but making sure that the house can be sold
>someday without major mods), I want a hot water coil in the air handler
>to boost the air temperature in those occasional events when the
>domestic supervisor is cold and wants heat right NOW. She tends to run
>thermostats either all the way up or down, thinking she will reach her
>comfort zone faster that way. Really irritating in the car, I can tell
>you!
>That is the heating side of it, from my viewpoint. He says a simple
>gas furnace is the way to go, because that is pretty much what he does
>in houses. A compromise would be a modern gas furnace with 2 levels
>of heating, and 2 fan speeds that won't have to run very often based on
>the hydronic doing most of the work.
>HVAC guy also wants me to put in 4 to 5 tons of AC for a house in
>Logan, Utah. I only have 4 tons for our house in Phoenix, Arizona, and
>it gets a bit hot there. The Utah house is smaller by 150 sq. ft. but
>also has a 900 sq. ft. loft and bonus room area upstairs that is pretty
>much open to the main floor. We won't be going up there much, though.
>I warned him about oversizing, letting him know that I could live with
>a system that runs too often or too long than one that short cycles. I
>can always add to the hydronic if I have to.
>I won't put in the outside portion of the AC for at least the first
>year, thinking that I have designed the house well enough to need very
>little cooling assistance, and if it does, I prefer either a whole
>house fan, or evaporative cooling.
>Does this sound like sound, and sane, thinking on my part?


--
Pain looks good on other people;
that's what they're for.





Posted by UtahBill on January 23, 2007, 7:05 pm


> If you're going with a low mass radiant system, it's a whole different
> critter from what you or your significant other are accustomed to.
> Use transfer plates under the sub floor. Limit the carpeting to throw
> rugs or small area rugs. It will be very comfortable as is assuming
> the design and installation are correct.
>
> Don't use a setback with the radiant system.
>
> Make sure you go with a modulating condensing boiler.
>
Entry, dining, kitchen are all tile. Those rooms will get a lot of sun
as well. Gonna try to use wood floors and area rugs every where else,
may have to fight the wife on that idea for the bedrooms, hence the
forced air system becomes even more necessary to back up the hydronics.
I was thinking of getting thicker grade aluminum foil to use as
transfer plates, just add some spray glue and put that up first.
>
> >


Posted by Steve Scott on January 23, 2007, 8:50 pm
Don't cheap out on the transfer plates. You spending a good buck for
a premium system. If you need to save the money you'd spend on
transfer plates go to panel radiators with an outdoor reset control
and constant circulation. Somewhat less money. A high amount of
radiate. Room by room control. You give up a little wall space but
these come in a huge variety of sizes.

We're just finishing up a system like this and the clients are
extremely happy with it.

Or go with radiant floor in the tile/wood areas and higher temp panel
rads in the BRs. We've done this as well. Although you may want to
have separate control over the areas with high solar gain vs the areas
with low solar gain.


>
>
>> If you're going with a low mass radiant system, it's a whole different
>> critter from what you or your significant other are accustomed to.
>> Use transfer plates under the sub floor. Limit the carpeting to throw
>> rugs or small area rugs. It will be very comfortable as is assuming
>> the design and installation are correct.
>>
>> Don't use a setback with the radiant system.
>>
>> Make sure you go with a modulating condensing boiler.
>>
>Entry, dining, kitchen are all tile. Those rooms will get a lot of sun
>as well. Gonna try to use wood floors and area rugs every where else,
>may have to fight the wife on that idea for the bedrooms, hence the
>forced air system becomes even more necessary to back up the hydronics.
>I was thinking of getting thicker grade aluminum foil to use as
>transfer plates, just add some spray glue and put that up first.
>>
>> >


--
Pain looks good on other people;
that's what they're for.





Posted by UtahBill on January 24, 2007, 9:46 am


Wife has already vetoed radiators of any kind, but I am working on
it....With the basement open and unfinished, I have the flexibility to
add parts and pieces as needed. There are places to hide radiators,
like where the bed meets the wall, she will never see that. And behind
a couch in the living room.


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