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Posted by heartmd on October 16, 2009, 4:19 pm
-------------------------------------
I currently have TWO 80% 20 year old Tempstar 150K BTU furnaces, one for
each floor in my 4600 sq ft home (2300 in each floor) (built in 1989).
Due to some situation, the builder will be replacing both furnaces with
new Trane 92% furnaces. He says that per his calculations TWO 120K BTU
furnaces will be enough for my home (I am adding R30 cellulose insulation
to my attic)
I have to pay extra if I need TWO 95% furnaces instead and extra if I want
TWO variable valve and variable speed ones (all from Trane)
I use $2288 worth of gas each year to heat my hone and operate the hot
water heater and drier each year.
Questions:
Am I right that I will save 3% on my gas bill with the extra 3%
efficiency? That means I will save $60 each year and for the lifetome of
the 95% furnace which is 20 years, I will save $60X20=$1200 for both
furnaces ($600 for each furnace). So anything more than $600 extra for
each 95% furnace will not be cost effective
What is the gas savings with the variable valve and variable speed.
Do variable valve and speed furnaces make any sense financially and even
comfortwise in a 2 furnace home?
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Posted by The King on October 16, 2009, 7:01 pm
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:19:19 +0000, kris60660_at_yahoo_dot_com@foo.com
(heartmd) wrote:
show/hide quoted text
>-------------------------------------
>I currently have TWO 80% 20 year old Tempstar 150K BTU furnaces, one for
>each floor in my 4600 sq ft home (2300 in each floor) (built in 1989).
>Due to some situation, the builder will be replacing both furnaces with
>new Trane 92% furnaces. He says that per his calculations TWO 120K BTU
>furnaces will be enough for my home (I am adding R30 cellulose insulation
>to my attic)
>I have to pay extra if I need TWO 95% furnaces instead and extra if I want
>TWO variable valve and variable speed ones (all from Trane)
>I use $2288 worth of gas each year to heat my hone and operate the hot
>water heater and drier each year.
>Questions:
>1.
>Am I right that I will save 3% on my gas bill with the extra 3%
>efficiency? That means I will save $60 each year and for the lifetome of
>the 95% furnace which is 20 years, I will save $60X20=$1200 for both
>furnaces ($600 for each furnace). So anything more than $600 extra for
>each 95% furnace will not be cost effective
>2.
>What is the gas savings with the variable valve and variable speed.
>3.
>Do variable valve and speed furnaces make any sense financially and even
>comfortwise in a 2 furnace home?
You didn't say where you live but unless you live in Nome AK you are
probably oversized. What you need to do is run a manual J heat loss
calc on your home. Size the furnace(s) accordingly and get the
highest efficiency you can afford.
Emphasis on the following. You will be decreasing the input and
using more of the output. Its a win win.
A properly sized two stage highest efficiency variable speed furnace
is the way to go. A two stage variable speed furnace will modulate the
output according to outside conditions thus minimizing input whenever
possible. Do the math using your personal data and see what your
costs compare to now. I think you'll find a much greater savings than
you currently anticipate.
Tell the mormon to piss off.
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Posted by .p.jm. on October 16, 2009, 8:18 pm
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:01:37 -0400, The King
show/hide quoted text
>On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:19:19 +0000, kris60660_at_yahoo_dot_com@foo.com
>(heartmd) wrote:
>>-------------------------------------
>>I currently have TWO 80% 20 year old Tempstar 150K BTU furnaces, one for
>>each floor in my 4600 sq ft home (2300 in each floor) (built in 1989).
>>Due to some situation, the builder will be replacing both furnaces with
>>new Trane 92% furnaces. He says that per his calculations TWO 120K BTU
>>furnaces will be enough for my home (I am adding R30 cellulose insulation
>>to my attic)
>>I have to pay extra if I need TWO 95% furnaces instead and extra if I want
>>TWO variable valve and variable speed ones (all from Trane)
>>I use $2288 worth of gas each year to heat my hone and operate the hot
>>water heater and drier each year.
>>Questions:
>>1.
>>Am I right that I will save 3% on my gas bill with the extra 3%
>>efficiency?
Pretty close. Actually 2.xx something
show/hide quoted text
>>That means I will save $60 each year and for the lifetome of
>>the 95% furnace which is 20 years, I will save $60X20=$1200 for both
>>furnaces ($600 for each furnace). So anything more than $600 extra for
>>each 95% furnace will not be cost effective
What would that money get you in a CD etc for 20 years ? Your
loss of that benefit over time adds to your investment cost now,
realized 20 years from now.
IOW - do you want to wait around 20 years to get your 600 $
back, no interest ? If so, please send it to me today ;-)
show/hide quoted text
>>2.
>>What is the gas savings with the variable valve and variable speed.
That's more a comfort issue ( evenness of temperature ) than
fuel cost.
show/hide quoted text
>>3.
>>Do variable valve and speed furnaces make any sense financially and even
>>comfortwise in a 2 furnace home?
Judgement call.
show/hide quoted text
>You didn't say where you live but unless you live in Nome AK you are
>probably oversized.
120,000 doesn't seem oversized for 2,300 sq ft ( per floor )
show/hide quoted text
> What you need to do is run a manual J heat loss
>calc on your home.
Yes.
show/hide quoted text
> Size the furnace(s) accordingly and get the
>highest efficiency you can afford.
Within, as he discusses, reasonable price / payback
calculations. Within which he forgot to adjust for the time value of
money. $ 600 today = $ 1,800 20 years from now, etc.
IMO, the 92 might be the better deal. lots of variables, of
course.
show/hide quoted text
>Emphasis on the following. You will be decreasing the input and
>using more of the output. Its a win win.
>A properly sized two stage highest efficiency variable speed furnace
>is the way to go. A two stage variable speed furnace will modulate the
>output according to outside conditions thus minimizing input whenever
>possible. Do the math using your personal data and see what your
>costs compare to now. I think you'll find a much greater savings than
>you currently anticipate.
>Tell the mormon to piss off.
The bitch never pays attention.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo online at www.pmilligan.net/palm/
Free 'People finder' program now at www.pmilligan.net/finder.htm
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Posted by The King on October 16, 2009, 9:04 pm
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:18:41 -0400, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
show/hide quoted text
>On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:01:37 -0400, The King
>>On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:19:19 +0000, kris60660_at_yahoo_dot_com@foo.com
>>(heartmd) wrote:
>>>-------------------------------------
>>>I currently have TWO 80% 20 year old Tempstar 150K BTU furnaces, one for
>>>each floor in my 4600 sq ft home (2300 in each floor) (built in 1989).
>>>Due to some situation, the builder will be replacing both furnaces with
>>>new Trane 92% furnaces. He says that per his calculations TWO 120K BTU
>>>furnaces will be enough for my home (I am adding R30 cellulose insulation
>>>to my attic)
>>>I have to pay extra if I need TWO 95% furnaces instead and extra if I want
>>>TWO variable valve and variable speed ones (all from Trane)
>>>I use $2288 worth of gas each year to heat my hone and operate the hot
>>>water heater and drier each year.
>>>Questions:
>>>1.
>>>Am I right that I will save 3% on my gas bill with the extra 3%
>>>efficiency?
> Pretty close. Actually 2.xx something
>>>That means I will save $60 each year and for the lifetome of
>>>the 95% furnace which is 20 years, I will save $60X20=$1200 for both
>>>furnaces ($600 for each furnace). So anything more than $600 extra for
>>>each 95% furnace will not be cost effective
> What would that money get you in a CD etc for 20 years ? Your
>loss of that benefit over time adds to your investment cost now,
>realized 20 years from now.
> IOW - do you want to wait around 20 years to get your 600 $
>back, no interest ? If so, please send it to me today ;-)
>>>2.
>>>What is the gas savings with the variable valve and variable speed.
> That's more a comfort issue ( evenness of temperature ) than
>fuel cost.
>>>3.
>>>Do variable valve and speed furnaces make any sense financially and even
>>>comfortwise in a 2 furnace home?
> Judgement call.
>>You didn't say where you live but unless you live in Nome AK you are
>>probably oversized.
>120,000 doesn't seem oversized for 2,300 sq ft ( per floor )
>> What you need to do is run a manual J heat loss
>>calc on your home.
> Yes.
>> Size the furnace(s) accordingly and get the
>>highest efficiency you can afford.
> Within, as he discusses, reasonable price / payback
>calculations. Within which he forgot to adjust for the time value of
>money. $ 600 today = $ 1,800 20 years from now, etc.
> IMO, the 92 might be the better deal. lots of variables, of
>course.
Is the 5K tax rebate deal still going on? To qualify for that you
have to have 95% afue or better furnace. Like you say 3% isn't a huge
deal but to me the best way to drive prices down is try and use as
less as possible.
I try really hard at limiting my energy consumption. Insulation is
cheap, ive saved a tank and a half of LP over a years time by adding
insulation to the attic..
insulation. 300
lp savings 5-600. Its a no brainer.
It would make sense to first check and if necessary add insulation to
decrease heat loss downsizing ever further. Insulation could save the
equal amount, or nearly as much, as the 3% eff increase of a furnace.
The price difference is not that large between the two (92-95+)
anyway. Just a few hundred. Might as well get the best bang cause
the average guy is only doing this once or maybe, twice.
Lots of variables as you say.
show/hide quoted text
>>Emphasis on the following. You will be decreasing the input and
>>using more of the output. Its a win win.
>>A properly sized two stage highest efficiency variable speed furnace
>>is the way to go. A two stage variable speed furnace will modulate the
>>output according to outside conditions thus minimizing input whenever
>>possible. Do the math using your personal data and see what your
>>costs compare to now. I think you'll find a much greater savings than
>>you currently anticipate.
>>Tell the mormon to piss off.
> The bitch never pays attention.
He's punch drunk.
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Posted by Existential Angst on October 17, 2009, 12:49 am
show/hide quoted text
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:19:19 +0000, kris60660_at_yahoo_dot_com@foo.com
> (heartmd) wrote:
>>-------------------------------------
>>I currently have TWO 80% 20 year old Tempstar 150K BTU furnaces, one for
>>each floor in my 4600 sq ft home (2300 in each floor) (built in 1989).
>>Due to some situation, the builder will be replacing both furnaces with
>>new Trane 92% furnaces. He says that per his calculations TWO 120K BTU
>>furnaces will be enough for my home (I am adding R30 cellulose insulation
>>to my attic)
>>I have to pay extra if I need TWO 95% furnaces instead and extra if I want
>>TWO variable valve and variable speed ones (all from Trane)
>>I use $2288 worth of gas each year to heat my hone and operate the hot
>>water heater and drier each year.
>>Questions:
>>1.
>>Am I right that I will save 3% on my gas bill with the extra 3%
>>efficiency? That means I will save $60 each year and for the lifetome of
>>the 95% furnace which is 20 years, I will save $60X20=$1200 for both
>>furnaces ($600 for each furnace). So anything more than $600 extra for
>>each 95% furnace will not be cost effective
>>2.
>>What is the gas savings with the variable valve and variable speed.
>>3.
>>Do variable valve and speed furnaces make any sense financially and even
>>comfortwise in a 2 furnace home?
> You didn't say where you live but unless you live in Nome AK you are
> probably oversized. What you need to do is run a manual J heat loss
> calc on your home. Size the furnace(s) accordingly and get the
> highest efficiency you can afford.
Quite a bit oversized, it seems to me.
The hvac installers estimated the heat input going into the original furnace
(by timing the 1 cu ft dial on the gas meter) to be about 70,000 btu in my
4,000+ sq ft drafty 1920 Englich tudor, 1/2 mile from NYC.
The OP's 300,000 total btu is thus over 4 times mine!
Mebbe he *is* in Alaska.
--
show/hide quoted text
> Emphasis on the following. You will be decreasing the input and
> using more of the output. Its a win win.
> A properly sized two stage highest efficiency variable speed furnace
> is the way to go. A two stage variable speed furnace will modulate the
> output according to outside conditions thus minimizing input whenever
> possible. Do the math using your personal data and see what your
> costs compare to now. I think you'll find a much greater savings than
> you currently anticipate.
> Tell the mormon to piss off.
>
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>I currently have TWO 80% 20 year old Tempstar 150K BTU furnaces, one for
>each floor in my 4600 sq ft home (2300 in each floor) (built in 1989).
>Due to some situation, the builder will be replacing both furnaces with
>new Trane 92% furnaces. He says that per his calculations TWO 120K BTU
>furnaces will be enough for my home (I am adding R30 cellulose insulation
>to my attic)
>I have to pay extra if I need TWO 95% furnaces instead and extra if I want
>TWO variable valve and variable speed ones (all from Trane)
>I use $2288 worth of gas each year to heat my hone and operate the hot
>water heater and drier each year.
>Questions:
>1.
>Am I right that I will save 3% on my gas bill with the extra 3%
>efficiency? That means I will save $60 each year and for the lifetome of
>the 95% furnace which is 20 years, I will save $60X20=$1200 for both
>furnaces ($600 for each furnace). So anything more than $600 extra for
>each 95% furnace will not be cost effective
>2.
>What is the gas savings with the variable valve and variable speed.
>3.
>Do variable valve and speed furnaces make any sense financially and even
>comfortwise in a 2 furnace home?