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Posted by Bubba on July 31, 2007, 11:40 pm
>> wrote:
>>>The inspector is correct, Even if the H2o tank is venting into an interior
>>>chimney you can still damage it where it goes through the attic and out,
>>>the
>>>bricks/liner never really get up to temp and this can cause the unit to
>>>not
>>>vent and ruin the structure. I would like to see it 'lined', and by the
>>>time
>>>you pay to have that done you may as well have a power vented system
>>>installed. Also, the PV system can save you considerable energy over the
>>>standard atmospheric draft unit.
>> Could you please show me how adding a power vented water heater
>> compared to a standard atmospheric water heater will save you money?
>> Consider also that they cost almost double of what a standard water
>> heater costs (each time it gets replaced).
>> The OP "may" also consider going with an electric water heater.
>> Bubba
>Sure Bubba, I will be happy to show you.
>First, atmospheric systems are dependent 100% on draft, draft changes. The
>best you can do with a typical atmospheric is 70% without a barometric
>damper system. The PV you can control the draft over fire to obtain the
>proper secondary air, thus, controlled efficiency.
>Secondly, the newer AO Smiths that are power vented are MUCH higher
>efficiency right out of the box, over 80%
70 something to 80% is NOT "Much" higher. I consider that marginal and
I checked their site and dont seem to easily find the actual AFUE
numbers on their units.
>Thirdly, when you consider the energy savings and the cost of the chimney
>liner its almost a wash.
........and the X2 cost of the power vented model versus the
atmospheric model..........
Plus the fact that a power vented unit has a venter motor running that
an atmospheric doesnt.
>Now, if one uses a water softener and also changes the anode every year,
>(Don't use Aluminum but Magnesium) the tank will last a very long time.
Hell, my customers wont even drain the sediment from the bottom of the
water heaters much less go for a yearly anode rod change.
>Rich
Rich, Im not arguing..........Im just saying that Im not sure a power
vented model is actually cheaper to run than an atmospheric. Id like
to see the numbers on paper. It would be much more convincing.
Bubba
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Posted by Geoman on August 1, 2007, 8:34 am
>>> wrote:
>>>>The inspector is correct, Even if the H2o tank is venting into an
>>>>interior
>>>>chimney you can still damage it where it goes through the attic and out,
>>>>the
>>>>bricks/liner never really get up to temp and this can cause the unit to
>>>>not
>>>>vent and ruin the structure. I would like to see it 'lined', and by the
>>>>time
>>>>you pay to have that done you may as well have a power vented system
>>>>installed. Also, the PV system can save you considerable energy over the
>>>>standard atmospheric draft unit.
>>> Could you please show me how adding a power vented water heater
>>> compared to a standard atmospheric water heater will save you money?
>>> Consider also that they cost almost double of what a standard water
>>> heater costs (each time it gets replaced).
>>> The OP "may" also consider going with an electric water heater.
>>> Bubba
>>Sure Bubba, I will be happy to show you.
>>First, atmospheric systems are dependent 100% on draft, draft changes. The
>>best you can do with a typical atmospheric is 70% without a barometric
>>damper system. The PV you can control the draft over fire to obtain the
>>proper secondary air, thus, controlled efficiency.
>>Secondly, the newer AO Smiths that are power vented are MUCH higher
>>efficiency right out of the box, over 80%
> 70 something to 80% is NOT "Much" higher. I consider that marginal and
> I checked their site and dont seem to easily find the actual AFUE
> numbers on their units.
It is if you have three daughters such as myself......
Secondly, the Vertex residential is double my cost, and the initial
installation is more, but future ones dont' require the venting again.
Also, the Vertex is 90%, I mistakenly typed 80% So, there is a 30% savings
and then you don't have the off time venting robbing you of money both in
hot water but also 24/7 of usage of indoor air for combustion.
>>Thirdly, when you consider the energy savings and the cost of the chimney
>>liner its almost a wash.
> ........and the X2 cost of the power vented model versus the
> atmospheric model..........
> Plus the fact that a power vented unit has a venter motor running that
> an atmospheric doesnt.
That vent motor hardly uses any amperage at all..
>>Now, if one uses a water softener and also changes the anode every year,
>>(Don't use Aluminum but Magnesium) the tank will last a very long time.
> Hell, my customers wont even drain the sediment from the bottom of the
> water heaters much less go for a yearly anode rod change.
Agreed, but if they do they will last.
>>Rich
> Rich, Im not arguing..........Im just saying that Im not sure a power
> vented model is actually cheaper to run than an atmospheric. Id like
> to see the numbers on paper. It would be much more convincing.
> Bubba
If you have grandma who takes a shower once a week no, maybe she should go
to an instant type tank.
You know, this isn't any different than a higher seer AC or higher COP Heat
Pump, the argument can always be, 'Will I get my money back', this has to be
decided out in the field, I've just offered the information......
Rich
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Posted by Geoman on August 1, 2007, 8:36 am
I forgot the link , DUH!
http://www.hgtvpro.com/hpro/np_supplyhouse/article/0,2623,HPRO_22396_4720411,00.html
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Posted by Bubba on August 2, 2007, 8:51 am
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>The inspector is correct, Even if the H2o tank is venting into an
>>>>>interior
>>>>>chimney you can still damage it where it goes through the attic and out,
>>>>>the
>>>>>bricks/liner never really get up to temp and this can cause the unit to
>>>>>not
>>>>>vent and ruin the structure. I would like to see it 'lined', and by the
>>>>>time
>>>>>you pay to have that done you may as well have a power vented system
>>>>>installed. Also, the PV system can save you considerable energy over the
>>>>>standard atmospheric draft unit.
>>>> Could you please show me how adding a power vented water heater
>>>> compared to a standard atmospheric water heater will save you money?
>>>> Consider also that they cost almost double of what a standard water
>>>> heater costs (each time it gets replaced).
>>>> The OP "may" also consider going with an electric water heater.
>>>> Bubba
>>>Sure Bubba, I will be happy to show you.
>>>First, atmospheric systems are dependent 100% on draft, draft changes. The
>>>best you can do with a typical atmospheric is 70% without a barometric
>>>damper system. The PV you can control the draft over fire to obtain the
>>>proper secondary air, thus, controlled efficiency.
>>>Secondly, the newer AO Smiths that are power vented are MUCH higher
>>>efficiency right out of the box, over 80%
>> 70 something to 80% is NOT "Much" higher. I consider that marginal and
>> I checked their site and dont seem to easily find the actual AFUE
>> numbers on their units.
>It is if you have three daughters such as myself......
>Secondly, the Vertex residential is double my cost, and the initial
>installation is more, but future ones dont' require the venting again.
>Also, the Vertex is 90%, I mistakenly typed 80% So, there is a 30% savings
>and then you don't have the off time venting robbing you of money both in
>hot water but also 24/7 of usage of indoor air for combustion.
>>>Thirdly, when you consider the energy savings and the cost of the chimney
>>>liner its almost a wash.
>> ........and the X2 cost of the power vented model versus the
>> atmospheric model..........
>> Plus the fact that a power vented unit has a venter motor running that
>> an atmospheric doesnt.
>That vent motor hardly uses any amperage at all..
>>>Now, if one uses a water softener and also changes the anode every year,
>>>(Don't use Aluminum but Magnesium) the tank will last a very long time.
>> Hell, my customers wont even drain the sediment from the bottom of the
>> water heaters much less go for a yearly anode rod change.
>Agreed, but if they do they will last.
>>>Rich
>> Rich, Im not arguing..........Im just saying that Im not sure a power
>> vented model is actually cheaper to run than an atmospheric. Id like
>> to see the numbers on paper. It would be much more convincing.
>> Bubba
>If you have grandma who takes a shower once a week no, maybe she should go
>to an instant type tank.
>You know, this isn't any different than a higher seer AC or higher COP Heat
>Pump, the argument can always be, 'Will I get my money back', this has to be
>decided out in the field, I've just offered the information......
>Rich
I guess that's basically what Im getting at. Im not argueing with you.
:-) Id like to see an actual comparison of some sort showing what the
operating costs of both would be under the exact same conditions.
It's just like air conditioning SEER's. It takes a lot of savings to
make up for the cost of the high eficiency SEER units.
Bubba
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Posted by Geoman on August 2, 2007, 6:57 pm
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>The inspector is correct, Even if the H2o tank is venting into an
>>>>>>interior
>>>>>>chimney you can still damage it where it goes through the attic and
>>>>>>out,
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>bricks/liner never really get up to temp and this can cause the unit
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>vent and ruin the structure. I would like to see it 'lined', and by
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>time
>>>>>>you pay to have that done you may as well have a power vented system
>>>>>>installed. Also, the PV system can save you considerable energy over
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>standard atmospheric draft unit.
>>>>> Could you please show me how adding a power vented water heater
>>>>> compared to a standard atmospheric water heater will save you money?
>>>>> Consider also that they cost almost double of what a standard water
>>>>> heater costs (each time it gets replaced).
>>>>> The OP "may" also consider going with an electric water heater.
>>>>> Bubba
>>>>Sure Bubba, I will be happy to show you.
>>>>First, atmospheric systems are dependent 100% on draft, draft changes.
>>>>The
>>>>best you can do with a typical atmospheric is 70% without a barometric
>>>>damper system. The PV you can control the draft over fire to obtain the
>>>>proper secondary air, thus, controlled efficiency.
>>>>Secondly, the newer AO Smiths that are power vented are MUCH higher
>>>>efficiency right out of the box, over 80%
>>> 70 something to 80% is NOT "Much" higher. I consider that marginal and
>>> I checked their site and dont seem to easily find the actual AFUE
>>> numbers on their units.
>>It is if you have three daughters such as myself......
>>Secondly, the Vertex residential is double my cost, and the initial
>>installation is more, but future ones dont' require the venting again.
>>Also, the Vertex is 90%, I mistakenly typed 80% So, there is a 30% savings
>>and then you don't have the off time venting robbing you of money both in
>>hot water but also 24/7 of usage of indoor air for combustion.
>>>>Thirdly, when you consider the energy savings and the cost of the
>>>>chimney
>>>>liner its almost a wash.
>>> ........and the X2 cost of the power vented model versus the
>>> atmospheric model..........
>>> Plus the fact that a power vented unit has a venter motor running that
>>> an atmospheric doesnt.
>>That vent motor hardly uses any amperage at all..
>>>>Now, if one uses a water softener and also changes the anode every year,
>>>>(Don't use Aluminum but Magnesium) the tank will last a very long time.
>>> Hell, my customers wont even drain the sediment from the bottom of the
>>> water heaters much less go for a yearly anode rod change.
>>Agreed, but if they do they will last.
>>>>Rich
>>> Rich, Im not arguing..........Im just saying that Im not sure a power
>>> vented model is actually cheaper to run than an atmospheric. Id like
>>> to see the numbers on paper. It would be much more convincing.
>>> Bubba
>>If you have grandma who takes a shower once a week no, maybe she should go
>>to an instant type tank.
>>You know, this isn't any different than a higher seer AC or higher COP
>>Heat
>>Pump, the argument can always be, 'Will I get my money back', this has to
>>be
>>decided out in the field, I've just offered the information......
>>Rich
> I guess that's basically what Im getting at. Im not argueing with you.
> :-) Id like to see an actual comparison of some sort showing what the
> operating costs of both would be under the exact same conditions.
> It's just like air conditioning SEER's. It takes a lot of savings to
> make up for the cost of the high eficiency SEER units.
> Bubba
I agree 100% with you. And every job is different.
This fall I'm putting retrofitting my heat pump to heat my hot water in
summer and during off times in the heating season. My electrical rate is a
third of my gas rate per therm..
Rich
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