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R-22 vs. R410a (Puron) Jay-n-123 05-16-2007
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Posted by on May 20, 2007, 5:39 pm
On Sun, 20 May 2007 21:19:14 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

>
>
>>> Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point
>>where
>>> a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is
>>> fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a vacuum
>>> pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge weighed
>>> in.
>>> Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with 410A,
>>> even a small leak will cause water to enter the system.
>>> This is simply not true.
>
>>But it *IS* true, it can and will happen.
>
>A leak can let water (and air, which is also bad) enter the system if
>the pressure inside the line is below atmospheric pressure. But how
>often does that happen?
>
>A pressure of 0 PSI gage (15 PSI absolute) in an R-22 or R-410a system
>means that the evaporator is either at -40 degrees, or it's dry (no
>refrigerant flowing). This is not a normal operating condition for an
>air conditioning system.

        Say WHAT ????? Bullshit.

        A ) the temperature equivalent at saturation at that pressure
will vary with the refrigerant

        B ) That applies only at saturation, - in the pure gaseous
state the pressure tells you nothing about the temperature. You can
very easily, and very often do, have a system malfunction where the
suction line is at zero PSI, the system is running, and the line temp
or evap temp is 70 degrees F. This is an every day commonplace thing.

        Wanna see ? Go up to any properly running system and remove
1/2 the charge. Watch.


>
>In normal operation, the low side pressure is several times atmospheric
>pressure and any leakage is outwards.
>
>        Dave

--
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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
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Posted by Noon-Air on May 20, 2007, 5:55 pm

> On Sun, 20 May 2007 21:19:14 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
> Martindale) wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>> Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point
>>>where
>>>> a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is
>>>> fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a
>>>> vacuum
>>>> pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge
>>>> weighed
>>>> in.
>>>> Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with
>>>> 410A,
>>>> even a small leak will cause water to enter the system.
>>>> This is simply not true.
>>
>>>But it *IS* true, it can and will happen.
>>
>>A leak can let water (and air, which is also bad) enter the system if
>>the pressure inside the line is below atmospheric pressure. But how
>>often does that happen?
>>
>>A pressure of 0 PSI gage (15 PSI absolute) in an R-22 or R-410a system
>>means that the evaporator is either at -40 degrees, or it's dry (no
>>refrigerant flowing). This is not a normal operating condition for an
>>air conditioning system.
>
> Say WHAT ????? Bullshit.
>
> A ) the temperature equivalent at saturation at that pressure
> will vary with the refrigerant
>
> B ) That applies only at saturation, - in the pure gaseous
> state the pressure tells you nothing about the temperature. You can
> very easily, and very often do, have a system malfunction where the
> suction line is at zero PSI, the system is running, and the line temp
> or evap temp is 70 degrees F. This is an every day commonplace thing.
>
> Wanna see ? Go up to any properly running system and remove
> 1/2 the charge. Watch.

Remove half the charge on a R-410a system that has a LPCO on it, and see how
far it gets before it shuts down. With the new controls on the Rheem/RUUD
stuff, it will try to restart a total of 3 times...if it trips on the LPCO 3
times, it will go into a hard lock-out, and has to be manually reset to
prevent induction of moisture into the system.

>>In normal operation, the low side pressure is several times atmospheric
>>pressure and any leakage is outwards.
>>
>> Dave
>
> --
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
> http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/



Posted by on May 20, 2007, 7:03 pm

>
> > On Sun, 20 May 2007 21:19:14 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
> > Martindale) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point
> >>>where
> >>>> a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is
> >>>> fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a
> >>>> vacuum
> >>>> pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge
> >>>> weighed
> >>>> in.
> >>>> Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with
> >>>> 410A,
> >>>> even a small leak will cause water to enter the system.
> >>>> This is simply not true.
> >>
> >>>But it *IS* true, it can and will happen.
> >>
> >>A leak can let water (and air, which is also bad) enter the system if
> >>the pressure inside the line is below atmospheric pressure. But how
> >>often does that happen?
> >>
> >>A pressure of 0 PSI gage (15 PSI absolute) in an R-22 or R-410a system
> >>means that the evaporator is either at -40 degrees, or it's dry (no
> >>refrigerant flowing). This is not a normal operating condition for an
> >>air conditioning system.
> >
> > Say WHAT ????? Bullshit.
> >
> > A ) the temperature equivalent at saturation at that pressure
> > will vary with the refrigerant
> >
> > B ) That applies only at saturation, - in the pure gaseous
> > state the pressure tells you nothing about the temperature. You can
> > very easily, and very often do, have a system malfunction where the
> > suction line is at zero PSI, the system is running, and the line temp
> > or evap temp is 70 degrees F. This is an every day commonplace thing.
> >
> > Wanna see ? Go up to any properly running system and remove
> > 1/2 the charge. Watch.
>
> Remove half the charge on a R-410a system that has a LPCO on it, and see
how
> far it gets before it shuts down. With the new controls on the Rheem/RUUD
> stuff, it will try to restart a total of 3 times...if it trips on the LPCO
3
> times, it will go into a hard lock-out, and has to be manually reset to
> prevent induction of moisture into the system.


They can *try* to protect their systems all they want.

But they *can't* protect them against moisture when a leak exists, PERIOD!




Posted by on May 20, 2007, 7:01 pm

> On Sun, 20 May 2007 21:19:14 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
> Martindale) wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>> Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point
> >>where
> >>> a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is
> >>> fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a
vacuum
> >>> pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge
weighed
> >>> in.
> >>> Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with
410A,
> >>> even a small leak will cause water to enter the system.
> >>> This is simply not true.
> >
> >>But it *IS* true, it can and will happen.
> >
> >A leak can let water (and air, which is also bad) enter the system if
> >the pressure inside the line is below atmospheric pressure. But how
> >often does that happen?
> >
> >A pressure of 0 PSI gage (15 PSI absolute) in an R-22 or R-410a system
> >means that the evaporator is either at -40 degrees, or it's dry (no
> >refrigerant flowing). This is not a normal operating condition for an
> >air conditioning system.
>
> Say WHAT ????? Bullshit.
>
> A ) the temperature equivalent at saturation at that pressure
> will vary with the refrigerant
>
> B ) That applies only at saturation, - in the pure gaseous
> state the pressure tells you nothing about the temperature. You can
> very easily, and very often do, have a system malfunction where the
> suction line is at zero PSI, the system is running, and the line temp
> or evap temp is 70 degrees F. This is an every day commonplace thing.
>
> Wanna see ? Go up to any properly running system and remove
> 1/2 the charge. Watch.


It's pretty obvious that he doesn't understand how an air conditioning
system operates.

So how the hell can he understand what happens under any other condition?




Posted by Bob_Loblaw on May 21, 2007, 10:35 am
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote





> You can
> very easily, and very often do, have a system malfunction where the
> suction line is at zero PSI, the system is running, and the line temp
> or evap temp is 70 degrees F. This is an every day commonplace thing.

And THAT'S when the moisture can enter through a leak(below atmospheric).

--
"Poor Canada. So desperate to be the socialist nirvana of multicultural
heaven, that it ends up being used and abused by the dregs of the world.
Oh, the joys of diversity!"

Respectfully, Bob

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