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Re: Air return duct to outside - effect on efficiency? Bubba 01-08-2008
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Posted by Bubba on January 8, 2008, 9:14 am
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:13:24 -0800 (PST), "Daniel J. Stern"

>We have gas-fired central heat with A/C in our old 2-story (+
>basement) house. 3-year-old Lennox air handler is in the basement.
>This house has been badly abused in the past, and ductwork has been
>mutilated. Air return capacity is grossly insufficient: the one and
>only air return is on the main floor, and it is the ~4" x 10" size of
>a regular heat register. There are eight supply registers throughout
>the house, nine if we count the one in the basement, some of which are
>oversize, so obviously one small register hole just isn't enough. The
>return duct goes audibly into vacuum when the furnace blower turns on
>(metal walls of the duct "pop"). To alleviate this condition, I
>removed the blockoff plate from the return duct in the basement. This
>plate covered where a humidifier used to be installed. I put some wire
>mesh over the hole and some spun-fibre filter batting over the mesh.
>This relieved the vacuum condition on the return duct, but is probably
>less than optimal (basement is smelly/mouldy/dusty) and may be against
>code (distribution air intake in the same space as combustion taking
>place -- don't know if that's problematic or not.)
>
>It occurs to me a flex duct could be run from the return duct (using
>the blockoff plate hole) to a pass-through in an unused door from the
>basement to outside, and a rodent/leaf/waterproof exterior air intake
>could be put on the outside. This would take supply air from outside
>the house and duct it to the air handler. Now here's the question:
>What would be the effect on system efficiency by doing so? I can think
>of two possible answers: Either the very cold outside air would take
>much more energy to heat up to household temperature, increasing the
>cost of running the system, or the greater temperature differential
>between the fire and air sides of the heat exchanger would mean more
>heat transfer to the supply air, reducing the amount of heat wasted up
>the flue and not significantly increasing fuel consumption to provide
>a given household ambient temperature. Obviously the reverse (cool/
>warm) of either situation would apply during air conditioning season.
>
>So...which is it?
>
>Please and thank you,
>
>-DS

You're going about it all wrong. All you need is some cardboard, duct
tape, bailing wire and bubble gum. With that you can have a brand new
efficienct system that everyone can enjoy.
Bubba

Posted by jamesgangnc on January 8, 2008, 9:19 am
You really need to just fix the return. Using outside air would be insane.
Using the basement air is just about equally stupid. The return can just be
on the first floor but it needs to be sized properly. It's usually not that
big a deal to box off part of a closet and put the return in the outside
wall of the closet. Don't you have a coat closet or pantry that is somewhat
centrally located on the first floor?

> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:13:24 -0800 (PST), "Daniel J. Stern"
>
>>We have gas-fired central heat with A/C in our old 2-story (+
>>basement) house. 3-year-old Lennox air handler is in the basement.
>>This house has been badly abused in the past, and ductwork has been
>>mutilated. Air return capacity is grossly insufficient: the one and
>>only air return is on the main floor, and it is the ~4" x 10" size of
>>a regular heat register. There are eight supply registers throughout
>>the house, nine if we count the one in the basement, some of which are
>>oversize, so obviously one small register hole just isn't enough. The
>>return duct goes audibly into vacuum when the furnace blower turns on
>>(metal walls of the duct "pop"). To alleviate this condition, I
>>removed the blockoff plate from the return duct in the basement. This
>>plate covered where a humidifier used to be installed. I put some wire
>>mesh over the hole and some spun-fibre filter batting over the mesh.
>>This relieved the vacuum condition on the return duct, but is probably
>>less than optimal (basement is smelly/mouldy/dusty) and may be against
>>code (distribution air intake in the same space as combustion taking
>>place -- don't know if that's problematic or not.)
>>
>>It occurs to me a flex duct could be run from the return duct (using
>>the blockoff plate hole) to a pass-through in an unused door from the
>>basement to outside, and a rodent/leaf/waterproof exterior air intake
>>could be put on the outside. This would take supply air from outside
>>the house and duct it to the air handler. Now here's the question:
>>What would be the effect on system efficiency by doing so? I can think
>>of two possible answers: Either the very cold outside air would take
>>much more energy to heat up to household temperature, increasing the
>>cost of running the system, or the greater temperature differential
>>between the fire and air sides of the heat exchanger would mean more
>>heat transfer to the supply air, reducing the amount of heat wasted up
>>the flue and not significantly increasing fuel consumption to provide
>>a given household ambient temperature. Obviously the reverse (cool/
>>warm) of either situation would apply during air conditioning season.
>>
>>So...which is it?
>>
>>Please and thank you,
>>
>>-DS
>
> You're going about it all wrong. All you need is some cardboard, duct
> tape, bailing wire and bubble gum. With that you can have a brand new
> efficienct system that everyone can enjoy.
> Bubba



Posted by Zyp on January 10, 2008, 2:44 am
Bubba wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:13:24 -0800 (PST), "Daniel J. Stern"
>
>> We have gas-fired central heat with A/C in our old 2-story (+
>> basement) house. 3-year-old Lennox air handler is in the basement.
>> This house has been badly abused in the past, and ductwork has been
>> mutilated. Air return capacity is grossly insufficient: the one and
>> only air return is on the main floor, and it is the ~4" x 10" size of
>> a regular heat register. There are eight supply registers throughout
>> the house, nine if we count the one in the basement, some of which
>> are oversize, so obviously one small register hole just isn't
>> enough. The return duct goes audibly into vacuum when the furnace
>> blower turns on (metal walls of the duct "pop"). To alleviate this
>> condition, I removed the blockoff plate from the return duct in the
>> basement. This plate covered where a humidifier used to be
>> installed. I put some wire mesh over the hole and some spun-fibre
>> filter batting over the mesh. This relieved the vacuum condition on
>> the return duct, but is probably less than optimal (basement is
>> smelly/mouldy/dusty) and may be against code (distribution air
>> intake in the same space as combustion taking place -- don't know if
>> that's problematic or not.)
>>
>> It occurs to me a flex duct could be run from the return duct (using
>> the blockoff plate hole) to a pass-through in an unused door from
>> the basement to outside, and a rodent/leaf/waterproof exterior air
>> intake could be put on the outside. This would take supply air from
>> outside the house and duct it to the air handler. Now here's the
>> question: What would be the effect on system efficiency by doing so?
>> I can think of two possible answers: Either the very cold outside
>> air would take much more energy to heat up to household temperature,
>> increasing the cost of running the system, or the greater
>> temperature differential between the fire and air sides of the heat
>> exchanger would mean more heat transfer to the supply air, reducing
>> the amount of heat wasted up the flue and not significantly
>> increasing fuel consumption to provide a given household ambient
>> temperature. Obviously the reverse (cool/ warm) of either situation
>> would apply during air conditioning season.
>>
>> So...which is it?
>>
>> Please and thank you,
>>
>> -DS
>
> You're going about it all wrong. All you need is some cardboard, duct
> tape, bailing wire and bubble gum. With that you can have a brand new
> efficienct system that everyone can enjoy.
> Bubba

And Bubba;

Don't forget the thermostat.


--
Zyp



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